# France and the cartoons of Mohammed; what's your take? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 29, 2020, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221 "2020-10-29T16:49:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Kron](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kron/32/12444_2.png) [@Kron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kron)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2020, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/181 "2020-11-01T19:26:46Z")
I will check it out, thanks! My question was meant in total seriousness. I couldn’t think of a depiction that I might find offensive, which I would guess is a byproduct of white privilege. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2020, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/182 "2020-11-01T19:28:41Z")
Look up World War propaganda. Plenty to see there. On all sides, both wars. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2020, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/183 "2020-11-01T19:49:24Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > Convince people that this is like the n-word to them or Jewish Holocaust jokes, not just a send-up of their spiritual leader. That seems an uphill battle to me. The N-word was used historically to dehumanize a part of our citizenry, as part of organized and officially sanctioned campaigns of terrorism and violence. The holocaust was… well the holocaust. Millions killed by the hatred and evil of fascism. Pictures of Muhammed are just that. They have not been used as part of a campaign of hatred and oppression or genocide. The only offense that they have is if you take literally a particular interpretation of a specific religion. It is offensive only because they have chosen to take offense to it, not because it was used by those who were causing them real harm. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2020, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/184 "2020-11-01T19:59:03Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Hell, I’d change my avatar to one of those cartoons for a day or two if I wasn’t sure I’d get dinged for completely inconsistent enforced so-called trolling. So, yes, threats do actually work to curtail freedom of expression. But would you copy the Charlie Hebdo cartoon onto a large lawn sign and display it prominently on your front lawn for a year or so ? > [@octopus](#): > > What’s my line for beheading folks over a cartoon, song, poem, or other written or verbalized expression? That really isn’t a question that I asked … I asked how far out on a limb **you** would put **yourself** in the name of free speech, if it actually put **your** life in danger. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2020, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/185 "2020-11-01T20:37:03Z")
Your question is irrelevant. It’s like asking a woman what clothing she should be able to leave her house in. ---
**Author:** ![ZosterSandstorm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e0b2c6/32.png) [@ZosterSandstorm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZosterSandstorm)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2020, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/186 "2020-11-01T20:38:16Z")
I guess the newspaper cartoonists and the teacher aren’t letting fear govern their lives as much as you are. Why you think this reflects poorly on them is the real mystery. ---
**Author:** ![lum\_s\_husband](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lum_s_husband/32/3698_2.png) [@lum\_s\_husband](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lum_s_husband)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2020, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/187 "2020-11-01T20:51:01Z")
“Slurs” are just words. That anyone takes “offense” is all on them. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2020, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/188 "2020-11-01T20:51:23Z")
So glad you’re back. Do you have the cite that I asked for with regards to people making rationalizations of Roof’s actions based on homophobic sermons alleged to have taken place in EAMEC? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2020, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/189 "2020-11-01T20:54:08Z")
> [@lum\_s\_husband](#): > > “Slurs” are just words. That anyone takes “offense” is all on them. Really believe that? Why not take a minute to reflect on some slurs that people have justifiably found offensive. The nuance of this discussion is not whether people can feel offended. It’s what can they justifiably do about it. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2020, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/190 "2020-11-01T20:54:19Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Your question is irrelevant. It’s like asking a woman what clothing she should be able to leave her house in. It’s far more analogous to asking a woman what clothing she would feel _safe_ or _comfortable_ leaving the house in _in a particular set of potentially dangerous circumstances_, since we _are_ talking about probably provoking a known threat (the cartoons vis-a-vis Islam). Particularly in the middle of an academic discussion _about_ what she "should\* be able to wear. Again: sometimes it’s different when the risk is real and inures to you. ---
**Author:** ![ZosterSandstorm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e0b2c6/32.png) [@ZosterSandstorm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZosterSandstorm)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2020, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/191 "2020-11-01T20:59:20Z")
> [@DavidNRockies](#): > > It’s far more analogous to asking a woman what clothing she would feel _safe_ or _comfortable_ leaving the house in _in a particular set of potentially dangerous circumstances_ , since we _are_ talking about probably provoking a known threat (the cartoons vis-a-vis Islam). > > Particularly in the middle of an academic discussion _about_ what she "should\* be able to wear. > > Again: sometimes it’s different when the risk is real and inures to you. And that’s the difference that the pro-censorship side usually refuses to admit. There is nothing more “racist” or “offensive” or in any way about the cartoons as compared to any other cartoons. There is nothing more wrong or less serving of legitimate ends of satire, political discussion, or exercising free speech for its own sake about cartoons of Mohammad as opposed to cartoons of Jesus, or cartoons of rabbis, or cartoons exaggerating Donald Trump’s obesity or Nancy Pelosi’s plastic surgery. The notion that there is something about the cartoons themselves that requires abandoning freedom is unsupportable, because it’s not what the pro-censorship side believes. The difference is that _political Islam will kill you for drawing a cartoon and other ideologies won’t_. Your whole argument is based on that crucial distinction. So the question is - should civilized humans let their rights and actions be governed by fear of violence from pre-modern ideologies, or not? ---
**Author:** ![lum\_s\_husband](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lum_s_husband/32/3698_2.png) [@lum\_s\_husband](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lum_s_husband)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2020, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/192 "2020-11-01T21:11:51Z")
Muslims, Jews, gays, blacks, women, etc. need to learn their place and stop being so uppity. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2020, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/193 "2020-11-01T21:15:00Z")
> [@lum\_s\_husband](#): > > Muslims, Jews, gays, blacks, women, etc. need to learn their place and stop being so uppity. Okay. Bye, Felicia. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2020, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/194 "2020-11-01T21:36:24Z")
Right, and when discussing issues such as freedom of speech or freedom of religion we discuss it in the context of how society should behave. We don’t say to women that they need to wear a burka to prevent rape do we? Now, you realize in some areas of the world immodesty is punishable. Now what is and what should be or two very obviously different things. Ideally, people should have freedom of expression without needing to fear knife or bike lock wielders. What I am comfortable risking and where or when to prove a point is _completely_ irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2020, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/195 "2020-11-01T21:50:05Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > That seems an uphill battle to me. No argument here. I think getting offended by that imagery is ridiculous. But, IF they can convince the populace that it’s terrible, then there will be non-violent consequences for those who cross that line, such as loss of readership, etc. ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2020, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/196 "2020-11-01T21:54:05Z")
> [@lum\_s\_husband](#): > > Muslims, Jews, gays, blacks, women, etc. need to learn their place and stop being so uppity. _ **Moderating** _ This is a warning for trolling. Do not post again in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2020, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/197 "2020-11-02T02:01:46Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > {…} Now, you realize in some areas of the world immodesty is punishable. {…} Ahh, ‘immodesty’, do America’s laws about women going topless count here? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2020, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/198 "2020-11-02T04:35:23Z")
I think those laws are silly and sexist. And? ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2020, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/199 "2020-11-02T14:33:49Z")
I can’t really remember the last time white Christians went out in broad daylight murdering people for their speech. Also, I can’t remember the last time a white Christian did something despicalbe in the name of Jesus/Mary and wasn’t widely condemned. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2020, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/200 "2020-11-02T14:49:54Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > The alleged racism of the cartoons is not the reason for the death threats. A perfectly neutral and non-racist depiction that ridicules Mohammed is enough to tip some people over the edge. Heck, Maajid Nawaz received death threats just for [retweeting a stick figure of Mohammed](https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/jan/28/maajid-nawaz-muslim-lib-dem-candidate-cartoon) that was inoffensive in the extreme. Leslie Stahl received death threats merely for asking fairly basic questions of the President. There is a sliding scale of “provocation” from non-existent to gross, but even at the lowest end some people will invent provocation to take umbrage at. Some people will get violently angry at even imagined provocations, particularly when raised on an ideological background of fear and hatred. > [@octopus](#): > > I’ve seen the cartoons. I absolutely have zero problem with them or practically any other exercise of freedom of expression. It’s vastly more preferable to not allow the state or a violent mob dictate what can be said or printed. > > I find it sad, but not surprising, that others are willing to capitulate to groups willing to employ the most violence. Yes, I agree - intimidation by the state or by violent mob - or by violent mobs stirred up by the state - is fundamentally destructive to a free society. > [@octopus](#): > > One set of countries has relatively modern norms of protection and advocacy of basic liberties the other set of countries are governed by ancient superstitions. I don’t think that delineation is as clear as you assume. > [@octopus](#): > > It’s like asking a woman what clothing she should be able to leave her house in. Something they have literally debated in France, BTW. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221.md?page=11)