# France and the cartoons of Mohammed; what's your take? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 29, 2020, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221 "2020-10-29T16:49:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2020, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/221 "2020-11-03T12:37:44Z")
Non-reply noted. And the idea that pictures of Muhammad are _not_ "part of a campaign of hatred and oppression " is just laughable. Only if Europe was otherwise blissfully Islamophobia-free, would that be true. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2020, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/222 "2020-11-03T12:40:13Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > Ok so we should ban anything that offends anyone, like abortions which offend Christians? > > All of my abortions were purely done to offend Christians unlike all of my caricatures of Mohammed which were solely done because of medical need. Being offensive isn’t a crime (outside the fever dreams of people on the right who think free speech is being stifled - don’t make their dreams come true!). Besides, that’s when you get counterarguments from the right, like “that gay couple could have gone to any cake shop! Why go to the one they know is owned by Christian fundamentalists?” You don’t get to question my motivation for my abortion or my gay wedding party or my cartoons. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2020, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/223 "2020-11-03T12:40:40Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > All of my abortions were purely done to offend Christians unlike all of my caricatures of Mohammed which were solely done because of medical need. Why does it matter? I doubt the radical Islamists see a difference between caricatures intended to offend versus those which are purely representative or merely critical. Imagine a Parisian director chose to make a film of Mohammed’s life and based it all on the work of the Koran. No caricature, no racism, no intent to do anything other than represent the (supposedly perfect) words of the book. You think that would meet with an Islamic thumbs-up and a cheery grin? I suspect not. If one can justifiably caricature politicians, popes, public figures etc. then on what grounds do we deem Mohammed to be something different or special? Other than the fear of violence or death why should that figure be treated differently? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2020, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/224 "2020-11-03T12:42:55Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > If one can justifiably caricature politicians, popes, public figures etc. then on what grounds do we deem Mohammed to be something different or special? Other than the fear of violence or death why should that figure be treated differently? Which of the others have non-representation as a longstanding tradition? It’s called simple respect. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2020, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/225 "2020-11-03T12:43:15Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Non-reply noted. > > And the idea that pictures of Muhammad are _not_ "part of a campaign of hatred and oppression " is just laughable. Only if Europe was otherwise blissfully Islamophobia-free, would that be true. So are the racist caricatures of Jews in Charlie Hebdo part of a campaign of hatred and oppression against Jews? Is the idea that they are not laughable? If not, why? Is it because Europe is otherwise blissfully anti-semetism free, or are you gonna move the goalposts again? And are the caricatures of the Pope in Charlie Hebdo part of a campaign of hatred and oppression against Catholics? Is the idea that they are not laughable? If not, why? Is it because Europe is otherwise blissfully anti-Papism free, or are you gonna move the goalposts again? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2020, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/226 "2020-11-03T12:46:11Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > So are the racist caricatures of Jews in Charlie Hebdo part of a campaign of hatred and oppression against Jews? Umm, yes, why do you ask? > [@Babale](#): > > And are the caricatures of the Pope in Charlie Hebdo part of a campaign of hatred and oppression against Catholics? Just the papal hierarchy, I think, not Catholics in general. And they aren’t racist depictions, so I don’t know why you’re lumping them. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2020, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/227 "2020-11-03T12:46:35Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > > > If one can justifiably caricature politicians, popes, public figures etc. then on what grounds do we deem Mohammed to be something different or special? Other than the fear of violence or death why should that figure be treated differently? > > Which of the others have non-representation as a longstanding tradition? It’s called simple respect Respect isn’t legally mandated; especially not respect for a religious group. Or should we all “respect” Christians by abstaining from things that offend them, like gay marriage and abortions? Jews don’t get to tell everyone to stop eating pork and stay home on Saturday. Christians don’t get to tell everyone how to go about every aspect of their lives (this is a recent change and in progress). And Muslims don’t get to tell anyone what they can and can’t draw. If your religion forbids drawing Muhammed, don’t do it; but the minute you tell anyone else what to so, you can fuck right off. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2020, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/228 "2020-11-03T12:50:04Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Respect isn’t legally mandated; Again, a complete strawman. The question was simply what makes Muhammad different from popes and politicians, no legal- or rights-based justification required. There’s no long tradition of not showing the pope or politicians. One can legally shit all over the tradition all one likes. Just know that it means one’s arse is hanging out for everyone to see while one does so… > [@Babale](#): > > If your religion forbids drawing Muhammed, don’t do it; but the minute you tell anyone else what to so, you can fuck right off. I don’t think Muslims care what someone posts in their private sketchbooks. But mass media has societal sanction. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2020, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/229 "2020-11-03T12:58:21Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Again, a complete strawman. The question was simply what makes Muhammad different from popes and politicians, no legal- or rights-based justification required. There’s no long tradition of not showing the pope or politicians. One can legally shit all over the tradition all one likes. Just know that it means one’s arse is hanging out for everyone to see while one does so… I’m super confused by what point you think you are making. Is everyone who ever drives on Saturday or eats pork “hanging their arse out for all to see” by violating Jewish law all over the place? Is someone who is gay “hanging their arse out” by going against most mainstream religions in the western world? If not, why does this one rule of Islam apply to everyone in the whole world? Look, if your point about CH was based on the racist caricatures that’s one thing. They aren’t any worse for Muslims than for jews and others and you seem to accept that, so great – CH is offensive, I’m fine with offensive speech, maybe you’re not and want it banned. Fine. Agree to disagree. But unless I’m misunderstanding you, you take particular issue with the portrayal of Muhammed aspect. And to that bit I say, absolutely not! Again, if their religion says “though shall make no umage of Muhammed” or whatever, great, i would be against a law that violates your religious freedom by forcing you to draw your prophet. If a new law was proposed that said “lets put people’s religion on their driver’s license but rather than write FAITH: X, we will just draw Jesus for Christians, Moses for Jews, Muhammed for Muslims -” I’d be like, “NO! That’s a terrible idea! It would violate religious freedoms!”. But I just don’t understand why you believe they should get to apply that law to other people in any way, shape, or form. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2020, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/230 "2020-11-03T13:03:22Z")
For a great example – Jews don’t spell out or sound out the name of God. You say “Adonai”, you don’t actually spell it out unless its in a holy text. Atheists having religious debates here routinely spell out the name of God, often to make a point, calling him by name and then saying something about how brutish or violent he is. There is no reason to do this other than shock value. When I was still a believer, I was even offended by this, at times. It would never occur to me to call for this to be moderated. If people want to do offensive things while spelling out the old testament name of God, I believe that should be entirely legal, despite how offensive it is to Jews. Do you disagree with this? The Jewish tradition of not spelling out the name of God outside of holy text is very old too. We just don’t behead people over it. Should it be forbidden? Eta: I realize that even though I don’t believe anymore, I still didn’t spell out the name I was referring to. You can see its a deep part of the culture. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2020, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/231 "2020-11-03T13:12:38Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > I’m super confused by what point you think you are making. Is everyone who ever drives on Saturday or eats pork “hanging their arse out for all to see” by violating Jewish law all over the place? Is someone who is gay “hanging their arse out” by going against most mainstream religions in the western world? If not, why does this one rule of Islam apply to everyone in the whole world? Well, as an _intellectually honest_ person, I would note that there are many reasons why non-Jews might eat pork or drive on Sunday, or gay people might simply exist, that don’t involve simply to offend Jews or homophobic religionists. I struggle to come up with a similar rationale for making cartoons of Muhammad… > [@Babale](#): > > But unless I’m misunderstanding you, you take particular issue with the portrayal of Muhammed aspect. No, I don’t. I think the depictions of ordinary Muslims are way worse. I do take issue with just dismissing it as just Muslims looking to be offended, though, as if it wasn’t their long tradition and more especially _ **as though giving the offence wasn’t the entire fucking point of them** _. > [@Babale](#): > > But I just don’t understand why you believe they should get to apply that law to other people in any way, shape, or form. I’ve said exactly fuck and all about applying any law in this regard. Only respect. Common respect says if some people have a long-standing religious and cultural tradition, it’s rude to go stamping all over it in a public forum just because you can. JFC, how hard is it to get my point - The law lets one draw all the Muhammad cartoons one feels like, I have never said different - but don’t expect everyone to think it’s brave or clever or welcoming or respectful. It’s none of those things. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2020, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/232 "2020-11-03T13:15:35Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Which of the others have non-representation as a longstanding tradition? It’s called simple respect. I don’t know what the word is for subservience to an idea on threat of death but “respect” certainly is not it. The figures of Islam and the doctrines and ideas thereof are no more deserving of protection from criticism or ridicule than any other figure or idea. My default is to give respect to _individuals_ until they show they don’t deserve it. Part of that respect is the criticism of their ideas and beliefs where I think it is due and the bigger the idea and the greater the potential impact from it, the greater critical scrutiny is required. Refraining from that criticism is not respect, it is infantilisation. I don’t respect _ideas_ themselves though, not by default. That has to be earned. One way I’ll know that a person does not deserve that respect is when they threaten violence due to a lack of deference to a religion I don’t believe in. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2020, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/233 "2020-11-03T13:16:19Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Atheists having religious debates here routinely spell out the name of God, often to make a point, calling him by name and then saying something about how brutish or violent he is. There is no reason to do this other than shock value. When I was still a believer, I was even offended by this, at times. If Jews started complaining, I would actually ask that they be taken seriously. Rather than a bunch of threads immediately started with the Name in the title… ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2020, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/234 "2020-11-03T13:17:04Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I don’t know what the word is for subservience to an idea on threat of death but “respect” certainly is not it. The respect is independent of the threat of death. You know, for all the millions of moderate Muslims all over Europe… ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2020, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/235 "2020-11-03T13:18:41Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Refraining from that criticism is not respect, it is infantilisation. Violating other peoples’ traditions, especially that of cultures you’ve historically oppressed, isn’t criticism, it’s just straight-up trolling and “putting them in their place” bullying. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2020, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/236 "2020-11-03T13:21:32Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Well, as an _intellectually honest_ person, I would note that there are many reasons why non-Jews might eat pork or drive on Sunday, or gay people might simply exist, that don’t involve simply to offend Jews or homophobic religionists. > > I struggle to come up with a similar rationale for making cartoons of Muhammad… 1. you could make a historical drama about the life of Muhammed akin to “passion of the christ” or “the ten commandments” but probably much more interesting because Muhammed was a conquering warlord so you’d get some war scenes 2. you could make a million and one parodies of the story, like “Life of Brian” or “the gospels according to Jesus’ childhood friend Biff”. 3. you could create art whose purpose is take people stop and think, perhaps by offending them, like piss christ 4. you could make dumb stoner comedies about it ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2020, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/237 "2020-11-03T13:22:42Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > No, I don’t. I think the depictions of ordinary Muslims are way worse. > > I do take issue with just dismissing it as just Muslims looking to be offended, though, as if it wasn’t their long tradition and more especially _ **as though giving the offence wasn’t the entire fucking point of them** _ . I agree that the cartoons are offensive and that their point is to be offensive. I think it is fine for there to be artists/publications whose goal is to offend. I don’t think very highly of them. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2020, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/238 "2020-11-03T13:24:14Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I’ve said exactly fuck and all about applying any law in this regard. Only respect. Common respect says if some people have a long-standing religious and cultural tradition, it’s rude to go stamping all over it in a public forum just because you can. > > JFC, how hard is it to get my point - The law lets one draw all the Muhammad cartoons one feels like, I have never said different - but don’t expect everyone to think it’s brave or clever or welcoming or respectful. It’s none of those things. Then we probably agree – CH isn’t particularly brave or worthy of praise, they’re offensive, but that’s fine, they should be allowed to continue being offensive, if Muslims don’t like that they can use speech to say so, and murders should stop. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2020, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/239 "2020-11-03T13:24:24Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I struggle to come up with a similar rationale for making cartoons of Muhammad… Cartoons of religious figures are commonplace for the purpose of criticism and satire and humour. Religions make massive claims for themselves, Islam claims to represent to perfect word of god and be a template for how to live and be an explanation for all the problems we may have. Billions of people follow it, it is not a fringe or niche world belief. You make massive claims and claim massive authority then you automatically put yourself in the firing line for massive criticism. Mohammed is the iconic representation of these claims, just as the pope is for Catholicism. _Of course_ he is a deserved target of criticism, caricature, satire. As it happens he was much less of a target for ridicule by CH than the pope or politicians. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2020, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/240 "2020-11-03T13:25:24Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > Atheists having religious debates here routinely spell out the name of God, often to make a point, calling him by name and then saying something about how brutish or violent he is. There is no reason to do this other than shock value. When I was still a believer, I was even offended by this, at times. > > If Jews started complaining, I would actually ask that they be taken seriously. Rather than a bunch of threads immediately started with the Name in the title… As a Jewish person, if Jews started complaining about non-Jews doing that, I would roll my eyes at them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221.md?page=13)