# France and the cartoons of Mohammed; what's your take? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 29, 2020, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221 "2020-10-29T16:49:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2020, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/241 "2020-11-03T13:27:16Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > The respect is independent of the threat of death. In the case of Islam right here and now I’d suggest not. Ask those news agencies who refrained from publishing the Danish cartoons whether it was done through respect or fear ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2020, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/242 "2020-11-03T13:27:18Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Then we probably agree – CH isn’t particularly brave or worthy of praise, they’re offensive, but that’s fine, they should be allowed to continue being offensive, if Muslims don’t like that they can use speech to say so, and murders should stop. We don’t actually agree - of course the murders should stop, but I think CH should _also_ be stopped. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2020, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/243 "2020-11-03T13:29:46Z")
> [@DavidNRockies](#): > > Maybe it’s more a matter of tempering rights with responsibilities – the notion that … just because you _can_ do something doesn’t automatically mean you _should_ do it. This ought to be taken to heart by everyone on all sides of an issue. It is also the reason for laws such as the castle doctrine, protesting in a right of way etc ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2020, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/244 "2020-11-03T13:30:16Z")
So should Piss Christ be stopped? “Satanist” death metal? Dungeons and Dragons? ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2020, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/245 "2020-11-03T13:31:49Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Violating other peoples’ traditions, especially that of cultures you’ve historically oppressed, isn’t criticism, it’s just straight-up trolling and “putting them in their place” bullying. Then you’ve set an impossible bar and you’ve painted yourself into a corner. Note that plenty of Islamic and other religious traditions run in direct opposition to and absolutely do violate the “people’s traditions” in numerous countries. And note also that the bullying from the religious side _actually_ results in credible threats and actions against innocent people. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2020, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/246 "2020-11-03T13:32:55Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Cartoons of religious figures are commonplace for the purpose of criticism and satire and humour. And those other figures don’t have a non-representation tradition (any more, some Christians used to be quite hardcore about it too). > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Mohammed is the iconic representation of these claims, just as the pope is for Catholicism. He’s “iconic” _without a traditional representation_… I mean, the _only_ people depicting him now are Islamophobes. That’s not the same as depictions of the Pope, an actual living human being depicted in all kinds of media - it’s a silly comparison. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2020, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/247 "2020-11-03T13:36:18Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Then you’ve set an impossible bar and you’ve painted yourself into a corner. Interesting that you think “don’t troll people” is an _impossible_ bar. And I don’t see any corner… > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Note that plenty of Islamic and other religious traditions run in direct opposition to and absolutely do violate the “people’s traditions” in numerous countries. And that’s fine. But “Be a dick to people” is not some secular mandate. I’m not advocating for fucking _Sharia_ here. I’m saying don’t be a dick to people that don’t deserve being a dick to (i.e. the millions of moderate Muslims). ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2020, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/248 "2020-11-03T13:40:15Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Violating other peoples’ traditions, especially that of cultures you’ve historically oppressed, isn’t criticism, it’s just straight-up trolling and “putting them in their place” bullying Piss Christ is an example of violating other people’s culture to troll someone. Satanic death metal uses Christianity’s own language and motifs to troll it. Using names of demons and devils from the Bible in your D&D game is violating other people’s culture. There are many Christians who were offended by all these things. My stance is 100% consistent: fuck 'em. You don’t like “real” demons in your D&D game? You’re welcome to find a new group. Don’t like death metal? Don’t listen to it. Don’t like Piss Christ? Just don’t think about it – it can’t hurt you. Specifically going to a bakery you know is owned by devout catholics so that you can ask them to bake you a gay wedding cake? I 100% agree with this, and I still recognize it as quite obvious “trolling” of the religious right. They SHOULD be trolled – you don’t get to run a discriminatory business in the USA based on your barbaric religion. But for some reason, drawings of Muhammed get special consideration? Fuck that. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2020, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/249 "2020-11-03T13:42:26Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I’m not advocating for fucking _Sharia_ here. I’m saying don’t be a dick to people that don’t deserve being a dick to (i.e. the millions of moderate Muslims). So you are against Piss Christ and making Christian bakers bake gay wedding cakes for the same reasons? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2020, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/250 "2020-11-03T13:44:59Z")
I don’t think you’re quite clear on what I want stopped by stopping CH - it’s not their depiction of Muhammad. At least, not because it’s of Muhammad. You’ll notice I’ve said nothing about stopping Jyllands-Posten. I’ve said publishing depictions of Muhammad is disrespectful, I didn’t say _I_ want all of them stopped. So call me when Piss Christ, Satanic metal and Dungeons and Dragons are full-on racist (well, D&D _does_ have the Drow, but their representation there has improved quite a bit) ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2020, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/251 "2020-11-03T13:45:14Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > {…} Piss Christ is an example of violating other people’s culture to troll someone. {…} I’m sure then you’ll have to problem pointing me to Andres Serrano clearly admitting that the sole reason _Piss Christ_ exists is to troll Christians? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2020, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/252 "2020-11-03T13:49:35Z")
I’m not a fan of Piss Christ, no. It’s childish. But there’s no current trend of anti-Christianity in the place it was produced, so it’s a bit less concerning for me overall. And making Christian bakers bake gay wedding cakes? Naah, sorry, homophobia trumps religious intolerance. If they are a public business, they can’t discriminate. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2020, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/253 "2020-11-03T13:50:24Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > I’m sure then you’ll have to problem pointing me to Andres Serrano clearly admitting that the sole reason _Piss Christ_ exists is to troll Christians? . It’s definitely an oversimplification and I don’t mean it in a bad way. I know the artist was catholic. What I mean is that the art piece takes something central to Christians (the crucifix) and intentionally does something provocative and unusual with it (dunk it in piss) to illicit a reaction (make people think about the commercialization of christianity). I think you could call that “trolling” without saying it isn’t art. It’s also the sort of thing I’d imagine a “valid” use of Muhammed in media might look like. A portrayal thats shocking, brings accusations of blasphemy… and which is still a valid work of art whose purpose is to make people think. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2020, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/254 "2020-11-03T13:51:29Z")
Skipped right over my whole “especially that of cultures you’ve historically oppressed” bit like it didn’t even exist, didn’t you 🤨 ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2020, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/255 "2020-11-03T13:53:03Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Skipped right over my whole “especially that of cultures you’ve historically oppressed” bit like it didn’t even exist, didn’t you 🤨 . So we are back to “only things I don’t like are racist and bad”. Cool, good to know. I thought people like you didn’t exist outside the fevered imagination of people like Octopus, but I guess I was wrong about that. Good to know. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2020, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/256 "2020-11-03T13:55:24Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > So we are back to “only things I don’t like are racist and bad”. When did we ever leave? Still haven’t answered that one. > [@Babale](#): > > I thought people like you didn’t exist outside the fevered imagination of people like Octopus, What, people with a strong moral system? ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2020, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/257 "2020-11-03T13:58:20Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > {…} It’s also the sort of thing I’d imagine a “valid” use of Muhammed in media might look like. A portrayal thats shocking, brings accusations of blasphemy… and which is still a valid work of art whose purpose is to make people think. I know those cartoons of Muhammad butt fucking a goat sure made me contemplate the truth of Islam… ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2020, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/258 "2020-11-03T13:58:22Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > So we are back to “only things I don’t like are racist and bad”. > > When did we ever leave? Still haven’t answered that one. > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > I thought people like you didn’t exist outside the fevered imagination of people like Octopus, > > What, people with a strong moral system? . Those of us whose moral system is a little more complex than “GOD SAYS X BAD, SO X BAD” tend to look for reasoning behind our moral systems, so I wouldn’t describe a moral system which you’ve boiled down to “WHAT MRDIBBLE LIKE, GOOD; WHAT MRDIBBLE DONT LIKE, BAD” could be described as a “strong” one. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2020, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/259 "2020-11-03T13:58:56Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > I know those cartoons of Muhammad butt fucking a goat sure made me contemplate the truth of Islam… . That’s exactly what I was referring to 🙄 ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2020, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/260 "2020-11-03T14:01:57Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > He’s “iconic” _without a traditional representation_ … I mean, the _only_ people depicting him now are Islamophobes. That’s not the same as depictions of the Pope, an actual living human being depicted in all kinds of media - it’s a silly comparison. The lack of representation is irrelevant. Salman Rushdie’s work was literal not pictorial and the uproar was just the same. We should not allow groups to dictate what is off-limits for criticism and criticism. There is an Islamic tradition of not depicting Mohammed. _Islamic_. Those are self-imposed and have no bearing on people who are not followers of the Islamic faith. There is equally a western tradition of a satirical press and this is also self-imposed and that calls for lampooning and ridiculing and criticising of anyone and everything that deserves it. Again, this should have no bearing on those who do not subscribe to that way of thinking. No-one can or should force such people to produce satirical periodicals or transgressive art etc. I see no way of fully reconciling those traditions other than by allowing free choice of which tradition to follow and sucking up what comes your way. If I’m offended by religious ideas and practices (which I am, deeply) that is my problem and it is for me to deal with it and consider how to react. Same applies to muslims and criticism of their religion and religious figures. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221.md?page=14)