# France and the cartoons of Mohammed; what's your take? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 29, 2020, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221 "2020-10-29T16:49:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2020, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/281 "2020-11-03T14:34:41Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Is your claim that only something as Islamophobic as your anti-semetic children’s book would be a problem? No, my claim is that everyone in the West’s OK with mocking Jews in satire is laughable. > [@Babale](#): > > So we’re good to go on a stoner comedy based around the life of Muhammed right? Because depictions of Jesus are so against Christian tradition 🙄 ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2020, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/282 "2020-11-03T14:34:53Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > Do you get this butthurt about the Book of Mormon? > > I’m not “butthurt” about anything, buddy. So I don’t know what this nonsequitur is about - it’s a religious text, why should I care ? As in the Broadway Musical. > **[The Book of Mormon (musical)](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Book_of_Mormon_(musical))** > > The Book of Mormon is a musical comedy with music, lyrics, and book by Trey Parker, Robert Lopez, and Matt Stone. The story follows two missionaries of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as they attempt to preach the faith to the inhabitants of a remote Ugandan village. The earnest young men are challenged by the lack of interest from the locals, who are distracted by more pressing issues such as HIV/AIDS, famine, female genital mutilation, child molestation, and oppression by the... See how insidious they are? THEY APPROPRIATED THE NAME OF THE RELIGIOUS TEXT!!!?!?!!11ELEVEN!! ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2020, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/283 "2020-11-03T14:36:34Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Because depictions of Jesus are so against Christian tradition 🙄 Depicting Jesus as liking gay sex and Mary as a stoner does go against Christian tradition, yes 🙄 ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2020, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/284 "2020-11-03T14:37:29Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > Is your claim that only something as Islamophobic as your anti-semetic children’s book would be a problem? > > No, my claim is that everyone in the West’s OK with mocking Jews in satire is laughable. Because you quoted the example of a nazi book? Thats like saying “the idea that the West is OK with autobiographical works is laughable. Just look at Mein Kampf!” ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2020, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/285 "2020-11-03T14:37:42Z")
I have no idea, I’ve never seen it, but from what I hear, it’s actually quite positive. But I am lolling at the idea of Mormons as an oppressed minority. The 1800s called, they want their jokes back, mate. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2020, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/286 "2020-11-03T14:37:47Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Millions of moderate Muslims still follow the tradition of not depicting Muhammad, though, and are hence targeted by the “satire” It may be worth pointing out that one can be not just a moderate Muslim, but a hard-core devout Muslim, and still be against murder and so on. It’s not cool when some people pretend to be in favour of tolerance of private religious practices only as long as the Muslim/Jew/whatever isn’t _too_ religious and does not stand out in any way. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2020, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/287 "2020-11-03T14:38:37Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Because you quoted the example of a nazi book? I quoted an example of the kind of depictions of Jews that would not fly today. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2020, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/288 "2020-11-03T14:39:22Z")
True, that is a good point. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2020, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/289 "2020-11-03T14:39:24Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I quoted an example of the kind of depictions of Jews that would not fly today But some depictions of Jews, even humorous or offensive ones, ARE OK. Not so with Muhammed. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2020, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/290 "2020-11-03T14:40:47Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > It may be worth pointing out that one can be not just a moderate Muslim, but a hard-core devout Muslim, and still be against murder and so on. You can also be a hard-core devout Muslim and not only be ok with depictions of Muhammed but buy tons of expensive ones to plaster all over the walls of your mosque. Only some Muslims follow this prohibition. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2020, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/291 "2020-11-03T14:42:13Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > But some depictions of Jews, even humorous or offensive ones, ARE OK And so are some depictions of Muslims. Because Muhammad is not analogous to Jews. > [@Babale](#): > > Not so with Muhammed. Just like depictions of Jesus buttfucking Mary would probably not fly with Christians, even if _the History of The World_ and _The Life of Brian_ is OK… ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2020, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/292 "2020-11-03T14:42:42Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Only some Muslims follow this prohibition. The majority. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2020, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/293 "2020-11-03T14:43:30Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > In the case of Islam right here and now I’d suggest not. Ask those news agencies who refrained from publishing the Danish cartoons whether it was done through respect or fear Penn & Teller used to have a show called _Bullshit!_ where they debunk things like homeopathy, anti-vaxxers, the war on drugs, and they even had an episode on the bible. When asked what groups the show wouldn’t go after Penn replied: > [@Penn Jillette](#): > > We haven’t tackled Scientology because Showtime doesn’t want us to. Maybe they have deals with individual Scientologists –- I’m not sure. And we haven’t tackled Islam because we have families. I do think people are, or at least were, afraid to criticize Islam too heavily for fear of retaliation in the form of physical violence. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2020, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/294 "2020-11-03T14:44:23Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > Not so with Muhammed. > > Just like depictions of Jesus buttfucking Mary would probably not fly with Christians, even if _the History of The World_ and _The Life of Brian_ is OK… Depictions of Jesus being gay at all wouldn’t fly with Christians either. And in fact, they didn’t. Last year Netflix put out a movie that I linked above, The First Temptation of Christ. As noted, there was much outrage. So what? ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2020, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/295 "2020-11-03T15:27:00Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > I do think people are, or at least were, afraid to criticize Islam too heavily for fear of retaliation in the form of physical violence. That is undoubtedly true. The fear of violence for even the minor transgression of writing a work of fiction is very real and very present and it makes even big “L” liberals say utterly stupid things. [Witness this exchange](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEVA4EAP_S0) between Christopher Hitchens and Shirley Williams from a few years back. I don’t think her head has stopped spinning yet. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2020, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/296 "2020-11-03T15:27:38Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > I do think people are, or at least were, afraid to criticize Islam too heavily for fear of retaliation in the form of physical violence. Every time I hear this argument, I hearken back to [this scene from _Holy Flying Circus_](https://youtu.be/2j--0gzT2rk), a rather surreal dramedy about the kerfuffle around _The Life of Brian_. https://www.youtube.com/embed/2j--0gzT2rk?feature=oembed&wmode=opaque There is a rather relevant point that, even were someone inclined to do a satirical version of the life of Muhammed, **very few people would get the jokes** and very, very few of them would find them funny, because whereas even non-Christians such as myself know quite a lot about the life and teachings of Jesus, in the West pretty much only Muslims and the odd comparative religious scholar know more than a few random tidbits about the life of the Prophet. There are plenty of “edgy” comedians who would do it if there was an actual audience for it (and if _they_ knew anything about the life of Muhammed). But there really isn’t. What the general public _do_ know is about the behavior of modern radical extremist Muslims, and thus we get films like the highly-recommended _Four Lions_. And I note Chris Morris and his family have yet to be beheaded. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2020, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/297 "2020-11-03T15:46:39Z")
Gee, I wonder why that might be? I think an HBO drama about the early Islamic conquests would be fascinating. You’ve got the Eastern Roman Empire and the Sassanid Persians, locked in an epic war that’s made them both weak, and a tribal army that explodes from seemingly nowhere to take them both by storm. You’ve got some very cinematic stories, like the Battle of Chains. But no one is willing to touch that with a 10 foot pole. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2020, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/298 "2020-11-03T16:58:28Z")
The reason to make cartoons that are so-called insensitive is to demonstrate that the principle of freedom of expression is stronger than stone-age through medieval era irrational traditions. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2020, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/299 "2020-11-03T16:59:21Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Gee, I wonder why that might be? It’s literally explained in the video I posted - because we (Americans and Europeans) live in predominantly Christian cultures where Christian narratives are woven into even secular stories and Christian holidays are reflected in the calendars for schools, government and businesses, and thus everyone is sufficiently familiar with them to fully understand what is being portrayed or parodied. The same is not true of the life of Muhammed or the tenets of Islam, although in predominantly Muslim countries they **do** make films about these things. > [@Babale](#): > > I think an HBO drama about the early Islamic conquests would be fascinating. You’ve got the Eastern Roman Empire and the Sassanid Persians, locked in an epic war that’s made them both weak, and a tribal army that explodes from seemingly nowhere to take them both by storm. You’ve got some very cinematic stories, like the Battle of Chains. I think so too. But the main audiences for these are in Islamic countries. Where indeed they do make that sort of film. > [@](#): > > But no one is willing to touch that with a 10 foot pole. Are you sure? Or are you just assuming that? Again, you have to consider what’s commercial. There are people in America who would go see a crappy Christian-themed film (my SIL is a big fan of _God’s Not Dead_, for example) but who would boycott a Muslim-themed blockbuster filled with A-listers. How much money could the studios rely on? And would the biggest trouble come from Muslims or Christians, or indeed both? Sure, there are idiots who will react badly to any film about Muhammed (see what happened with _The Message_) but then there are religious idiots of all ilks (see what happened with _The Last Temptation of Christ_ or even _The Life of Brian_). And [there are plenty of Islamic-themed films on offer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Islam-related_films), including ones on religious figures and historical events. Just because they’re not being made in Hollywood doesn’t mean they’re not being made. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2020, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/300 "2020-11-03T17:23:21Z")
That’s a fair point, but these things aren’t going to be introduced to our culture the way things are going now. It might be a bit of a chicken and egg issue – until the relationship between the dominant countered of the West and the Muslims living in the West improves, it will be hard to include Muslims in our culture in this way. But without Muslims, their history, and culture being included in our culture, how will this positive relationship develop? Maybe one solution is to start with media that’s more familiar to the Western audience. From the fantastical perspective, something like 1001 Arabian Nights is already part of the Western culture, as well as Arabic culture; a more nuanced/respectful/accurate portrayal than the Disneyfied Aladin could be a good first step. Or from a historical perspective, a more modern/nuanced take on the Crusades, perhaps following Saladin, could certainly work. (If you need to frame it in a way that’s acceptable to the Christianized west, make the central character a Christian who is captured by the Arabs, but soon learns that they are in many ways far more civilized than the people he arrived with - a story that was used by the Saladin campaign of Age of Empires 2 in the 90s). I think the point I was trying to make is not that we need stoner comedies about Islam right now. Rather, my point is that one of the ways we would be able to tell we’ve made some progress is when something like that is feasible. There are a bunch of improvements that would need to be made before this is possible: 1. non Muslim Westerners need to be familiar enough with Muslim culture and ideas that they’re both interested in a movie like this and so that it can be made at a level that allows them to laugh WITH a Muslim audience, not AT them. 2. Muslims living in the west need to be enough a part of society that they feel like they’re in on the joke rather than the butt of it 3. Muslims living in the west need to be on board with the culture of satire and irreverence that we have in most Western nations. I’m not sure what the best way to get there is. Muslims living in the west obviously need to be a part of that conversation, too. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221.md?page=16)