# France and the cartoons of Mohammed; what's your take? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 29, 2020, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221 "2020-10-29T16:49:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2020, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/301 "2020-11-03T17:45:39Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Every time I hear this argument, I hearken back to [this scene from _Holy Flying Circus_](https://youtu.be/2j--0gzT2rk), a rather surreal dramedy about the kerfuffle around _The Life of Brian_ . I wouldn’t expect a satire on Mohammad in the vein of The Life of Brian to work for a western audience. But things have changed since 1979 and adherents to Islam are a more visible part of the social fabric in western Europe and the United States. I think there’s certainly an audience interested in seeing an episode of Bullshit! that dealt with the Koran just like they had one dealing with the bible. But Penn Jillett didn’t want to do one because he was afraid of violent reprisal. And I don’t think that fear is entirely unwarranted, do you? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2020, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/302 "2020-11-03T20:04:22Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > The reason to make cartoons that are so-called insensitive is to demonstrate that the principle of freedom of expression is stronger than stone-age through medieval era irrational traditions. Yes, like I already said , “put them in their place” bullying. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2020, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/303 "2020-11-03T20:12:53Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Yes, like I already said , “put them in their place” bullying. There is a world view in which all bullying is bad but also in which some bullying is worse than other bullying. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2020, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/304 "2020-11-03T20:19:22Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Muhammad butt fucking a goat. Seeing as a very high percentage of Muslims think that homosexuality is morally wrong I think a graphic sexual image is a perfectly understandable means of pushing back against that. I think an ideology that pushes such an idea is deserving of criticism and I hope you would be too. Such a belief is deeply offensive to me and yet muslims seem to not care about voicing it. Are they just setting out to antagonise me? Do they not care about the offense they are causing me? Of course even better would be an image of Mohammed involved in gay sex. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2020, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/305 "2020-11-03T20:21:38Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Yes, like I already said , “put them in their place” bullying. Are Islamic views on homosexuality above criticism and ridicule? Would such criticism be “put them in their place bullying” ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2020, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/306 "2020-11-03T20:26:53Z")
I’d also quite like to know if from a humanist point of view, what is the greatest offense: a cartoon image depicting imaginary bestiality, or real people put to death because of who they love? ---
**Author:** ![ZosterSandstorm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e0b2c6/32.png) [@ZosterSandstorm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZosterSandstorm)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2020, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/307 "2020-11-03T20:28:40Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Are Islamic views on homosexuality above criticism and ridicule? Would such criticism be “put them in their place bullying” I guess that’s the point of disagreement here - some of us think the right “place” for barbarians who murder people over cartoons is in some sort of untouchable pantheon of wisdom where we let their preferences dictate what we are allowed to do and say and thank them for machine-gunning our privilege. Others think that the “place” for such sort-of-humans is in prison or in the ground. Guess that’s what debating is for. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2020, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/308 "2020-11-03T20:30:46Z")
And? No religion or ideology should be above criticism or even ridicule. Threats of violence by the state or state sanctioned mobs is the real threat to liberty. Not poorly drawn art or cartoons. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2020, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/309 "2020-11-03T20:35:16Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Are Islamic views on homosexuality above criticism and ridicule? No. What the fuck would give you the idea that I think they are? > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Would such criticism be “put them in their place bullying” Does it come in the form of a racist cartoon or an unnecessary violation of their religious traditions? ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2020, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/310 "2020-11-03T20:36:32Z")
> [@ZosterSandstorm](#): > > I guess that’s the point of disagreement here - some of us think the right “place” for barbarians who murder people over cartoons is in some sort of untouchable pantheon of wisdom where we let their preferences dictate what we are allowed to do and say and thank them for machine-gunning our privilege. Others think that the “place” for such sort-of-humans is in prison or in the ground. Guess that’s what debating is for. I suspect that, were I to voice such disgusting homophobia, without the safety net of a religious dogma, there are some on this thread that would condemn me loudly, longly and strongly and not worry too much if I felt offended by such condemnation. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2020, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/311 "2020-11-03T20:38:39Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Does it come in the form of a racist cartoon or an unnecessary violation of their religious traditions? it would be a non-racist picture of mohammed engaged in gay sex, with a big smile and a caption that says “Better than a 9 year old” ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2020, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/312 "2020-11-03T20:39:47Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > There is a world view in which all bullying is bad but also in which some bullying is worse than other bullying. And did I post anything that says different? > [@octopus](#): > > And? No religion or ideology should be above criticism or even ridicule. There’s ridicule, and then there’s ridicule. > [@QuickSilver](#): > > I’d also quite like to know if from a humanist point of view, what is the greatest offense: a cartoon image depicting imaginary bestiality, or real people put to death because of who they love? Is this a serious question? Of course murder is worse. Of course, nobody at all has said otherwise in this thread, so … nice pile of straw you got there. > [@ZosterSandstorm](#): > > **such sort-of-humans** “Oh, no, we’re not like the Nazis any more…” ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2020, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/313 "2020-11-03T20:40:26Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > it would be a non-racist picture of mohammed engaged in gay sex, with a big smile and a caption that says > “Better than a 9 year old” Yeah, Europe is so welcoming… ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2020, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/314 "2020-11-03T20:44:58Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Is this a serious question? Of course murder is worse. Of course, nobody at all has said otherwise in this thread, so … nice pile of straw you got there. It is not a pile of straw. I didn’t accuse you of supporting murder. I’m questioning whether your position strikes a correct balance when looking at actions committed by bullies on the whole. Do you agree that some bullies are worse than others? ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2020, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/315 "2020-11-03T20:46:29Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Yeah, Europe is so welcoming… Certainly more welcoming to homosexuals than the Islamic texts and many of its adherents are. I think criticism, ridicule and offense are perfectly acceptable when deployed against offensive beliefs. Not only acceptable, pretty much required. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2020, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/316 "2020-11-03T20:49:52Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Yeah, Europe is so welcoming… Racism is a problem around the globe. Europe is not unique in that respect. But is it your position that if only Europeans were nicer to Muslims and didn’t publish ‘blasphemous’ cartoons, there would not be an Islamist terrorist problem in Europe, or the world? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2020, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/317 "2020-11-03T20:55:13Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > But is it your position that if only Europeans were nicer to Muslims and didn’t publish ‘blasphemous’ cartoons, there would not be an Islamist terrorist problem in Europe, or the world? No, there’s more to it than not publishing cartoons. A whole lot more. But the cartoons don’t help at all. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2020, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/318 "2020-11-03T20:58:25Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > But the cartoons don’t help at all. No, I don’t suppose they do. Still, we need to be able to admit that some forms of bullying are worse than others. Would you agree with that statement? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2020, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/319 "2020-11-03T20:58:48Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > No, there’s more to it than not publishing cartoons. A whole lot more. But the cartoons don’t help at all I dont think there’s much point to debating you here. You disapprove of similar things for other faiths, so that’s fair enough. I don’t think anyone’s beliefs are above mockery. Not mine, not Muslims, Christians, Jews, Communists, Capitalists, the Founding Fathers… no one. Clearly you have a different opinion, and we aren’t going to convince each other. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2020, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/320 "2020-11-03T20:59:00Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I’m questioning whether your position strikes a correct balance when looking at actions committed by bullies on the whole. Why are you questioning this? Have I said anything in this thread to give you the impression I don’t condemn murder? No, obviously not. I’ve outright condemned it already. So why the fuck would you think I’d condemn murder, but _not as much as_ making a cartoon? That would be a ridiculous leap to make, based off nothing I’ve actually said. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221.md?page=17)