# France and the cartoons of Mohammed; what's your take? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 29, 2020, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221 "2020-10-29T16:49:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2020, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/341 "2020-11-04T10:25:50Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > That dark place? That’s where the Muslims of Europe already live. Which is why so few want to come and live here of course ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2020, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/342 "2020-11-04T10:44:37Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > No, I can’t guess. Do tell which population you treat as a whole rather than individuals. Did I say “population”? I’m pretty sure I said “group”. What a very specific gloss you put on it … > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > No you aren’t. You are wanting special protection for one group over another. The norms are that no target is off limits. I await your imminent publication of Picaninny Comics with eager anticipation… > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Which is why so few want to come and live here of course Obvious fallacy is obvious - that there are _darker_ places (largely of the West’s creation) doesn’t make the new place any less dark. Also, many of the Muslims I’m talking about _didn’t_ “come and live” there, they were born there. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2020, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/343 "2020-11-04T11:21:53Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Did I say “population”? I’m pretty sure I said “group”. What a very specific gloss you put on it … Substitute as you wish, still waiting for your answer > [@MrDibble](#): > > I await your imminent publication of Picaninny Comics with eager anticipation… I am free to write a publication, you are free to find it offensive and rebut, criticise and protest accordingly. That is the way it should be. I’d suggest though that instead of tilting at windmills you actually wait until something is produced and actually understand what it represents and what its message and purpose is. You are implicitly putting criticism of Islam and Mohammed on the same level as obvious outright racial hatred and incitement. That is certainly what the Islamists want you to do so good job, carry on that brave fight, do that heavy lifting for them, they’ll be very proud of you. > [@MrDibble](#): > > Obvious fallacy is obvious - that there are _darker_ places (largely of the West’s creation) doesn’t make the new place any less dark. Hey, you said “dark place” regarding Europe. I assumed you meant therefore it was worse than everywhere else. I was unaware your scale started at “dark” and just got worse from there. I’m happy to go with that and state that Europe and the West in general is the lightest shade of dark. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2020, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/344 "2020-11-04T11:51:53Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Substitute as you wish, still waiting for your answer Why, racists, of course. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I am free to write a publication Try publishing _The Windrush Picaninnies : A Comic Satire (now with fuller lips, wider noses! )_ or _The Eternal Jew and Why Hitler Was Misunderstood: A Graphic Novel_ and see how free you are… > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > You are implicitly putting criticism of Islam and Mohammed on the same level as obvious outright racial hatred and incitement. I thought I was being quite explicit about it. Because that is what it’s all about. Muslims = scary brown people. In scary lines, stretching Europe to its … breaking point. As it were… Well, when others on your side can deign to consider them people, and not “sort-of-humans”, that is… > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > That is certainly what the Islamists want you to do so good job, carry on that brave fight, do that heavy lifting for them, they’ll be very proud of you. As the Neo-nazis and Le Pens and Farages of the Right are well chuffed with you, no doubt. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Hey, you said “dark place” regarding Europe. I assumed you meant therefore it was worse than everywhere else. Yeah, whole lot of _assuming_ of what I meant going on in this thread…funny how it’s always the kind of assuming that assumes the worst. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I’m happy to go with that and state that Europe and the West in general is the lightest shade of dark. The West “in general”, _if_ you’re including places like New Zealand and Canada, sure. France, not so much. ---
**Author:** ![ZosterSandstorm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e0b2c6/32.png) [@ZosterSandstorm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZosterSandstorm)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2020, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/345 "2020-11-04T12:11:07Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Try publishing _The Windrush Picaninnies : A Comic Satire (now with fuller lips, wider noses! )_ or _The Eternal Jew and Why Hitler Was Misunderstood: A Graphic Novel_ and see how free you are… OK. > **[Clashing Tides of Color: A Vivid Depiction and Analysis of a World in...](https://www.amazon.com/Clashing-Tides-Color-Competitive-Disintegration/dp/1646066448)** > > Clashing Tides of Color: A Vivid Depiction and Analysis of a World in Competitive Disintegration and in Danger of Complex Chaos \[Stoddard, T. Lothrop\] on Amazon.com. \*FREE\* shipping on qualifying offers. Clashing Tides of Color: A Vivid Depiction and... > **[Mein Kampf: Adolf Hitler, Ralph Manheim: 9780395925034: Amazon.com: Books](https://www.amazon.com/Mein-Kampf/dp/0395925037)** > > Mein Kampf \[Adolf Hitler, Ralph Manheim\] on Amazon.com. \*FREE\* shipping on qualifying offers. Mein Kampf > **[Little Pickaninnies: Chubb, Ida M.: Amazon.com: Books](https://www.amazon.com/Little-Pickaninnies-Ida-M-Chubb/dp/B000Q9LQM6)** > > Little Pickaninnies \[Chubb, Ida M.\] on Amazon.com. \*FREE\* shipping on qualifying offers. Little Pickaninnies There is in fact a huge volume of racist literature available for sale at any given outlet where literature is sold, and it’s at your local library too. It is, in fact, protected by free speech in countries which respect that value and - hold on to your heads - it’s advertised and sold without anyone being murdered over it. Your ceaselessly repeated assertion that this sort of material doesn’t exist remains incorrect, as does your equivocation of “criticism of Islamic terrorism” with “racism” and the implied support of murdering cartoonists in whose service it is deployed. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2020, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/346 "2020-11-04T12:13:34Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Why, racists, of course. circular argument > [@MrDibble](#): > > Because that is what it’s all about. Muslims = scary brown people. In scary lines, stretching Europe to its … breaking point. As it were… No, that isn’t what this discussion is about. > [@MrDibble](#): > > As the Neo-nazis and Le Pens and Farages of the Right are well chuffed with you, no doubt. I despise them and their views. I just wouldn’t ban them from spewing it and would loudly condemn violence against them for doing so. > [@MrDibble](#): > > Yeah, whole lot of _assuming_ of what I meant going on in this thread…funny how it’s always the kind of assuming that assumes the worst. quite rich considering your assumptions about the motivations of cartoonists and critics of Islam. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2020, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/347 "2020-11-04T13:06:58Z")
> [@ZosterSandstorm](#): > > There is in fact a huge volume of racist literature available for sale Yeah, I’m _sure_ there is. And irrelevant. “this 1935 book” “Published in 1925” “January 1, 1929” I wasn’t saying “I bet you can’t get old racist literature republished”, buddy. I was saying one can’t create one’s own new racist caricatures of Jews or Blacks and expect them to just be accepted by most of Western society as societal satire. Only one of your examples is even illustrated. > [@ZosterSandstorm](#): > > Your ceaselessly repeated assertion that this sort of material doesn’t exist Again, making up shit I didn’t say. It’s starting to look a lot less like “assuming” by all of you, and a lot more like “projecting”. > [@ZosterSandstorm](#): > > the implied support of murdering cartoonists Implied _where_? In the posts where _ **I’ve directly said murder is bad?** _ That’s some grasp of logic you clearly don’t have, there. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > circular argument “I don’t trust racists to properly assess racism” is not a circular argument. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > No, that isn’t what this discussion is about. That is what “criticism of Islam and Mohammed” is about. Very much so. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I despise them and their views. But happy to carry their water. And you think I _don’t_ despise Islamicism and its views? > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I just wouldn’t ban them from spewing it And that is where we differ. I would. Happily. I’d ban them _and_ I’d ban Islamicist views. And I wouldn’t shit on all the other Muslims while I did it, either. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > quite rich considering your assumptions about the motivations of cartoonists and critics of Islam. I’m not assuming, there. I’m looking at the racist trash media they actually produced, unlike the posters putting words in my mouth I never said. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2020, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/348 "2020-11-04T13:44:48Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > “I don’t trust racists to properly assess racism” is not a circular argument. What do you call an argument that goes: ‘Everyone who disagrees with me is a racist.’ ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2020, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/349 "2020-11-04T13:46:24Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I was saying one can’t create one’s own new racist caricatures of Jews or Blacks and expect them to just be accepted by most of Western society as societal satire. I don’t expect them to be accepted. I’d expect to receive quite a bit of criticism. I’d expect to be vilified and shunned out of the public eye. “Cancel culture”, if you will. However, should I choose to make something in such a bad taste, what I should not expect is either government censorship or a violent or murderous reaction. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2020, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/350 "2020-11-04T13:46:43Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Only one of your examples is even illustrated. I bet you’re impossible to shop for. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2020, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/351 "2020-11-04T13:55:28Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > What do you call an argument that goes: ‘Everyone who disagrees with me is a racist.’ A strawman? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2020, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/352 "2020-11-04T13:57:34Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Try publishing _The Windrush Picaninnies : A Comic Satire (now with fuller lips, wider noses! )_ or _The Eternal Jew and Why Hitler Was Misunderstood: A Graphic Novel_ and see how free you are… Of course, CH comics are nothing like either of those things. They don’t call for the extermination or enslavement of an entire race, so they got that going for them, which is nice. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2020, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/353 "2020-11-04T14:01:03Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > However, should I choose to make something in such a bad taste, what I should not expect is either government censorship or a violent or murderous reaction. **N\_B** wasn’t arguing about what _the government_ would or wouldn’t censor, he was arguing about what was and wasn’t the social “norms”. Specifically “_The **norms** are that no target is off limits._” That’s clearly bullshit. I was responding to that. Of course, nobody here is advocating for violence or murder, so that part’s irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2020, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/354 "2020-11-04T14:01:08Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > > > No, that isn’t what this discussion is about. > > That is what “criticism of Islam and Mohammed” is about. Very much so Is all criticism of Jesus and Christianity due to fear and hatred of Christians? Or is some of it because Christianity is an oppressive ideology with repressive ideas about sex, gender, orientation, women’s role in society, etc etc? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2020, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/355 "2020-11-04T14:02:46Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Of course, CH comics are nothing like either of those things. No, you’re right. They’re worse. At least picaninnies would be human caricatures. Not monkeys. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2020, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/356 "2020-11-04T14:04:35Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > A strawman? Is it? Help me parse your argument. You said: > [@MrDibble](#): > > “I don’t trust racists to properly assess racism” is not a circular argument. Some of us disagree that CH can be fairly characterized as a racist publication. Is our judgement suspect? If so, why? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2020, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/357 "2020-11-04T14:05:34Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > Of course, CH comics are nothing like either of those things. > > No, you’re right. They’re worse. At least picaninnies would be human caricatures. Not monkeys There aren’t enough eye roll smilies in the world for you. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2020, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/358 "2020-11-04T14:05:37Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Is all criticism of Jesus and Christianity due to fear and hatred of Christians? Mmmm, if only there was some difference between Islam and Christianity with regard to its status in Europe… > [@](#): > > Or is some of it because Christianity is an oppressive ideology with repressive ideas about sex, gender, orientation, women’s role in society, etc etc? Is your argument that _none_ of the criticism of Islam in Europe is because of racism? That Islamophobia doesn’t exist? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2020, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/359 "2020-11-04T14:06:02Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Some of us disagree that CH can be fairly characterized as a racist publication. Is our judgement suspect? If so, why? Yes, because you dared to disagree with MrDibble. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2020, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/360 "2020-11-04T14:06:55Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Or is some of it because Christianity is an oppressive ideology with repressive ideas about sex, gender, orientation, women’s role in society, etc etc? > > Is your argument that _none_ of the criticism of Islam in Europe is because of racism? That Islamophobia doesn’t exist? Nope! I’ve already said I agree some of the cartoons cross the line, almost all are in poor taste, and that Islamophobia is bad and a problem. Got any more strawmen? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221.md?page=19)