# France and the cartoons of Mohammed; what's your take? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 29, 2020, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221 "2020-10-29T16:49:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2020, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/381 "2020-11-04T15:09:26Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > […] insult of fundamentalism […] 'Cause that’s what’s being complained about _in this thread_. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2020, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/382 "2020-11-04T15:09:48Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > The ones in charge are rarely the ones dying. My point exactly…so why would shutting CH down embolden them? They’d have to start doing their own propaganda. HA ha, sorry, I couldn’t help myself, my little joke. Like the West is going to stop being racist anytime soon. Ha! I kill me! ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2020, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/383 "2020-11-04T15:13:57Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Why do you hate my free speech so much? We’re debating. I’m not telling you to shut up and you have no reason to fear for your safety from me in expressing your critical opinions. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2020, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/384 "2020-11-04T15:16:12Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > We’re debating Aah, so we’re not playing games, and what we post actually means what we say? Good that you’ve come around to this way of thinking. So, about that “prioritize”… > [@QuickSilver](#): > > I’m not telling you to shut up You kind of were. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2020, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/385 "2020-11-04T15:25:07Z")
I’ve engaged here to take my mind off the election. But I’m finding the pedantry tiresome. I’m going to make a cup of tea and do something else for a while. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2020, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/386 "2020-11-04T15:26:56Z")
So your point is essentially “I agree that violence against people for drawing a cartoon is wrong. However Charlie Hebdo is racist and therefore doesn’t deserve your support.” In other words, you’re making the same argument my mom makes every time a BLM protest breaks out: “It’s wrong for cops to kill anyone, but the black community shouldn’t lionize a criminal!”. That’s BS when Cadence Owens says it, when my mom says it, or when you say it. It’s especially BS when every single time someone is murdered for being black or for making cartoons about Muslims you trot out that same argument. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2020, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/387 "2020-11-04T15:27:19Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I’ve engaged here to take my mind off the election. Whereas I’ve engaged here because I think Charlie Hebdo’s racist cartoons shouldn’t get a pass just because some of its targets happen to be killers. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2020, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/388 "2020-11-04T15:28:51Z")
“Whereas I’ve engaged here because I think George Floyd’s criminal conduct shouldn’t get a pass just because some he happened to be murdered by a cop” Yep, just like my mom’s argument. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2020, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/389 "2020-11-04T15:37:39Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > So your point is essentially “I agree that violence against people for drawing a cartoon is wrong. However Charlie Hebdo is racist and therefore doesn’t deserve your support.” Yes. A stance I was already happy to take as soon as I was aware of the publication and its output. Years before anyone there was killed. Just so it’s clear - I’m saying that there’s nothing linking my attitude to CH, and the fact that they were victims of violence. They could never have been attacked, and I still would want their racist filth banned. > [@](#): > > In other words In _your_ words, that you’re happily going to put in my mouth, I’m sure… > [@](#): > > , you’re making the same argument my mom makes every time a BLM protest breaks out: “It’s wrong for cops to kill anyone, but the black community shouldn’t lionize a criminal!”. Sure, it’s exactly like that 🙄 Well, except for the “but”, which is doing a lot of heavy lifting in that sentence. And how the racist side somehow jumped the fence there. But yeah - “racist cartoons shouldn’t be published”, the new “black community shouldn’t lionize a criminal”, who knew? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2020, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/390 "2020-11-04T15:42:06Z")
It gets more stupid an analogy the more you make it - you do realise _you’re_ now saying “racists should get a pass on their racism if they’re the victims of violence”, right? I’m sure Liam Neeson can identify with that feel, bro. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2020, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/391 "2020-11-04T16:10:23Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > It gets more stupid an analogy the more you make it - you do realise _you’re_ now saying “racists should get a pass on their racism if they’re the victims of violence”, right? They don’t get a ‘pass’ on anything. You are free to call them out for their racism, if you believe they are racist. You are free to refuse to purchase their product and you are free to encourage other people to not purchase their product. If you convince enough people not to buy their product that they go out of business, mission accomplished, I guess. But you don’t get to just arbitrarily shut them down. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2020, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/392 "2020-11-04T16:11:05Z")
And I have no idea what Liam Neeson has to do with anything, but OK ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2020, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/393 "2020-11-04T16:35:59Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > They don’t get a ‘pass’ on anything. If they’re allowed to spew their racist filth, they’re getting a pass. They don’t give a shit about their good reputation. Trolls never do. And is “arbitrarily” a word that’s going to need walking back, like Quicksilver’s “prioritize”? I wouldn’t be shutting them down “arbitrarily”, I’ll be shutting them down because a) I would have the right to, in this hypothetical. I’m not advocating some kind of mob shut-down. b) it would be for good reasons, not randomly. > [@Babale](#): > > And I have no idea what Liam Neeson has to do with anything, but OK He’s someone who thought being a victim of violence (actually, just the boyfriend of a victim) somehow excused and even justified his racism. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2020, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/394 "2020-11-04T16:49:31Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > And is “arbitrarily” a word that’s going to need walking back, like Quicksilver’s “prioritize”? I wouldn’t be shutting them down “arbitrarily”, I’ll be shutting them down because > a) I would have the right to, in this hypothetical. I’m not advocating some kind of mob shut-down. > b) it would be for good reasons, not randomly. No, because “Because MrDibble said it was racist” is not a good enough reason to ban speech. > [@MrDibble](#): > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > And I have no idea what Liam Neeson has to do with anything, but OK > > He’s someone who thought being a victim of violence (actually, just the boyfriend of a victim) somehow excused and even justified his racism. Cool story? I’m not sure what that added to the conversation but OK. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2020, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/395 "2020-11-04T16:52:02Z")
You realize that with actual freedom of speech there is nothing illegal about racist, sexist, etc. expressions? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2020, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/396 "2020-11-04T17:02:14Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > No, because “Because MrDibble said it was racist” is not a good enough reason to ban speech. It’s the _best_ reason. > [@](#): > > Cool story? I’m not sure what that added to the conversation but OK. It was just a throwaway line riffing off you thinking victimhood excuses racism, buddy. Your ignorance of how common racist behaviours are in society is what dragged it into a 3-post extravaganza. > [@octopus](#): > > You realize that with actual freedom of speech there is nothing illegal about racist, sexist, etc. expressions? “Freedom of speech” doesn’t exist. Just differences in what’s prohibited. And your version of it sucks. Racist and sexist speech _should_ be illegal. I’m happy I live in a place where the former already is. It’s _improved_ my country. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2020, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/397 "2020-11-04T17:06:41Z")
Actually, it shouldn’t be illegal. I’m not sure what you fear from the random cartoonists compared to the state or state sanctioned mobs. Furthermore, religious ideas or practices should never be beyond critique. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2020, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/398 "2020-11-04T17:08:33Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > I’m not sure what you fear from the random cartoonists compared to the state or state sanctioned mobs. If it’s not screamingly obvious, it’s because **the first historically leads to the other**. I wasn’t bringing up _Der Giftpilz_ for shits and giggles, before. It’s a stark lesson in where racist speech leads. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2020, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/399 "2020-11-04T17:09:57Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > No, because “Because MrDibble said it was racist” is not a good enough reason to ban speech. > > It’s the _best_ reason. I honestly can’t tell if you’re being sarcastic because you think you’re above having to offer any explanation for what you say, or if you honestly believe this is a good reason. Either way, it’s not a good look. > [@MrDibble](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Cool story? I’m not sure what that added to the conversation but OK. > > It was just a throwaway line riffing off you thinking victimhood excuses racism, buddy. Your ignorance of how common racist behaviours are in society is what dragged it into a 3-post extravaganza I’m familiar with Liam Neeson going on TV to apologize for roaming the streets looking for a black man to fight to the death. I just don’t see why you think that has anything to do with our discussion. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2020, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/400 "2020-11-04T17:16:00Z")
Ok, let’s concede that you are correct. How do you establish that something is racist, sexist, blasphemous, anti trans or whatever? Furthermore, _who_ makes that determination and based on what objective criteria? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221.md?page=21)