# France and the cartoons of Mohammed; what's your take? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 29, 2020, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221 "2020-10-29T16:49:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 24
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2020, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/462 "2020-11-06T12:05:26Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > So should The Simpsons be banned because they show the face of God? If Jews complain, **and it’s obvious they’re doing it to be dicks to Jews** , then sure. > [@Babale](#): > > one of Judaism’s key tenants LOL ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2020, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/463 "2020-11-06T12:07:24Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Are The Simpsons clearly indicating that it’s the face of the Jewish God? > Also, so the prohibition against depicting 'God" isn’t just a Islamic one? Whaddayaknow! Sometimes they are, yes, like when he’s speaking to Moses. And no, it’s not just an Islamic violation. I don’t think anyone should feel obligated to follow devout Jewish law - I don’t. Same with any Christian prohibitions on iconography. Not all Muslims prohibit depictions of Muhammed, some actually decorate their mosques with images. Why let the Caliphate speak for them all? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2020, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/464 "2020-11-06T12:09:41Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > So should The Simpsons be banned because they show the face of God? > > If Jews complain, **and it’s obvious they’re doing it to be dicks to Jews** , then sure. That’s the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard. > [@](#): > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > one of Judaism’s key tenants > > LOL It’s the second commandment. The penalty for violating it in Jewish law is death by stoning. You won’t find a single devout Jewish depiction of God, whereas you’ll find tons of devout Islamic depictions of Muhammed. Just because Jews today don’t kill people over it doesn’t mean its a central tenant; that you react to this with “LOL” shows how clueless you are. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2020, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/465 "2020-11-06T12:10:57Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Sometimes they are, yes, like when he’s speaking to Moses. Right, 'cause that ain’t in the Christian Bible. Totally on topic, I’m still not really clear on exactly why and to what purpose people have this incredible need to depict Muhammad. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2020, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/466 "2020-11-06T12:12:59Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > Sometimes they are, yes, like when he’s speaking to Moses. > > Right, 'cause that ain’t in the Christian Bible. Jews, Christians, and Muslims all believe in the same God (you can go on about how God is an ill defined term anyways- sure, I agree, but they all believe that they believe in the same God). > [@](#): > > Totally on topic, I’m still not really clear on exactly why and to what purpose people have this incredible need to depict Muhammad. Would you be ok with a rule that says “no depictions of Donald Trump so we avoid offending his supporters”? ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2020, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/467 "2020-11-06T12:15:06Z")
Ahh, the ‘answer a question with a different question’ non-answer! ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2020, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/468 "2020-11-06T12:16:12Z")
I’ll spell it out for you: because we should be free to critique any ideology and view. Now I repeat – you cool with a moratorium on depictions of Trump? I don’t see why anyone would want to depict Trump anyways, other than to disparage his supporters. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2020, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/469 "2020-11-06T12:17:52Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Mean speech is not equivalent to physical assault. Equivalently dickish. “Physical assault” is also bullshit. Pork in kosher sausage is not assault. Neither is urine in holy water. > [@Babale](#): > > I’m saying your comparison that tricking Jews into eating pork = tricking Muslims into eating pork != mean speech. It looked to me like you were saying somehow eating isn’t coming into close personal contact, actually. > [@Babale](#): > > That’s the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard. Because intent doesn’t matter to you? > [@Babale](#): > > It’s the second commandment. No, the 2nd commandment is _definitely_ not “one of Judaism’s key tenants.” > [@Babale](#): > > The penalty for violating it in Jewish law is death by stoning. Lots of stoning deaths in Israel, these days? > [@Babale](#): > > Just because Jews today don’t kill people over it doesn’t mean its a central tenant; It kind of would, given they only follow one part of it. If it was “a central tenant”, which it’s not. > [@](#): > > that you react to this with “LOL” shows how clueless you are. That’s not why I lolled. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2020, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/470 "2020-11-06T12:19:08Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > I’m still not really clear on exactly why and to what purpose people have this incredible need to depict Muhammad. I have yet to hear any other explanation that “To be dicks” - even if it’s “to be dicks to terrorists specifically, and other Muslims are just collateral damage” ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2020, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/471 "2020-11-06T12:20:20Z")
How does a cartoon of Muhammad critique Islam? (Other than “Fuck you muslims and fuck your child fucking '‘profit’!”) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2020, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/472 "2020-11-06T12:20:46Z")
**MrDibble** , I’m not sure I understand your position, and I’d sure appreciate a little insight into it. Let’s say, for the sake of argument, that an image of Muhammad gets published; say it’s an insulting one, if that makes a difference: 1. What do you believe the government should do in response? Collect fines? Hand out jail time? Write a sternly-worded letter while wagging a finger? Sing their praises and offer them medals? Nothing at all? 2. What do you believe the general public should do in response? Protest them? Cheer them on? Refuse to buy the publication, and encourage others to do likewise? Shrug? 3. What do you believe should be done if someone kills those who publish an image of Muhammad? Punish them exactly as harshly as you would someone who killed to make a few bucks? More harshly? Less harshly? If it were your call all the way on all of those, what would those calls _be?_ ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2020, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/473 "2020-11-06T12:23:36Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > Mean speech is not equivalent to physical assault. > > Equivalently dickish. “Physical assault” is also bullshit. Pork in kosher sausage is not assault. Neither is urine in holy water. You’re calling it out as not physical assault, which shows you believe there is a scale. I maintain that the scale goes mean words \< tricking someone into coming into physical contact with what they consider unclean \< causing actual harm to someone. Apparently you maintain that mean words = physical harm. Also, I’ve never said CH aren’t “dickish”. People are allowed to be “dickish”. > [@MrDibble](#): > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > That’s the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard. > > Because intent doesn’t matter to you? Intent matters, but no harm no foul. > [@MrDibble](#): > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > The penalty for violating it in Jewish law is death by stoning. > > Lots of stoning deaths in Israel, these days? So to get political support from you, Jews need to start murdering apostates? You’re right, you’re not much of an atheist after all. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2020, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/474 "2020-11-06T12:24:40Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > 1. What do you believe the government should do in response? Collect fines? Hand out jail time? Write a sternly-worded letter while wagging a finger? Sing their praises and offer them medals? Nothing at all? Remove their publishing license and hand out fines. I don’t think it merits jail time (unless they don’t pay the fine, of course) > [@](#): > > 1. What do you believe the general public should do in response? Protest them? Cheer them on? Refuse to buy the publication, and encourage others to do likewise? Shrug? Remove to buy it, protest, lobby their politicians to act, vote for new politicans if they don’t. > [@](#): > > 1. What do you believe should be done if someone kills those who publish an image of Muhammad? Punish them exactly as harshly as you would someone who killed to make a few bucks? More harshly? Less harshly? More harshly. Life in prison, no parole. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2020, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/475 "2020-11-06T12:24:44Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > How does a cartoon of Muhammad critique Islam? > (Other than “Fuck you muslims and fuck your child fucking '‘profit’!”) For example if you believe Islamic law is repressive to women you might have a cartoon of Muhammed sitting on a bunch of chained women in veils quoting lines of the Quran that nowadays people present as pro woman. From Wikipedia: > **[Political cartoon](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_cartoon)** > > A political cartoon, also known as an editorial cartoon, is a cartoon graphic with caricatures of public figures, expressing the artist's opinion. An artist who writes and draws such images is known as an editorial cartoonist. They typically combine artistic skill, hyperbole and satire in order to either question authority or draw attention to corruption, political violence and other social ills. > Developed in England in the latter part of the 18th century, the political cartoon was pioneered b... ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2020, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/476 "2020-11-06T12:27:04Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > For example if you believe Islamic law is repressive to women you might have a cartoon of Muhammed sitting on a bunch of chained women in veils quoting lines of the Quran that nowadays people present as pro woman. And pissing off Muslims with this cartoon is supposed to change their opinions how exactly? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2020, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/477 "2020-11-06T12:29:16Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > And pissing off Muslims with this cartoon is supposed to change their opinions how exactly? By exposing their position as ridiculous and inconsistent and making them rethink their ideas. How is any political cartoon supposed to work? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2020, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/478 "2020-11-06T12:29:41Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > > [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > > > 1. What do you believe the government should do in response? Collect fines? Hand out jail time? Write a sternly-worded letter while wagging a finger? Sing their praises and offer them medals? Nothing at all? > > Remove their publishing license and hand out fines. I don’t think it merits jail time (unless they don’t pay the fine, of course) What should happen to the author of this cartoon? [https://9b16f79ca967fd0708d1-2713572fef44aa49ec323e813b06d2d9.ssl.cf2.rackcdn.com/1140x\_a10-7\_cTC/20150809nextpage2-1-1567814933.jpg](https://9b16f79ca967fd0708d1-2713572fef44aa49ec323e813b06d2d9.ssl.cf2.rackcdn.com/1140x_a10-7_cTC/20150809nextpage2-1-1567814933.jpg) Eta: spoilered a potentially offensive cartoon ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2020, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/479 "2020-11-06T12:34:45Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > You’re calling it out as not physical assault, which shows you believe there is a scale. I maintain that the scale goes mean words \< tricking someone into coming into physical contact with what they consider unclean \< causing actual harm to someone. Apparently you maintain that mean words = physical harm. No, but my scale is mean words = tricking someone \< physical harm. > [@Babale](#): > > People are allowed to be “dickish”. Not if they’re being racist about it. > [@](#): > > Intent matters, but no harm no foul. Love how you get to determine the harm, not the people saying they’re being harmed. > [@](#): > > So to get political support from you, Jews need to start murdering apostates? Who said Islamic murderers have my political support? > [@](#): > > You’re right, you’re not much of an atheist after all. That’s a lovely _non sequitur_. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2020, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/480 "2020-11-06T12:35:20Z")
Yes, a cartoon of ‘Muhammed sitting on a bunch of chained women in veils’ is sure to change minds! Why, I don’t think I’ve heard a more compelling argument than that cartoon! Ya know, just my humble opinion, but when you bait bears you really can’t object if sometimes you eat the bear … and sometimes the bear eats you. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2020, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/481 "2020-11-06T12:37:09Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Ya know, just my humble opinion, but when you bait bears you really can’t object if sometimes you eat the bear … and sometimes the bear eats you. I’m sure you’d be very supportive if someone posted that in a thread about a girl getting raped. I mean, did you SEE how short her skirt was? 🙄 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221.md?page=23) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221.md?page=25)