# France and the cartoons of Mohammed; what's your take? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 29, 2020, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221 "2020-10-29T16:49:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 30
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2020, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/582 "2020-11-07T15:14:50Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > You’ve already admitted that any **cartoon** or **depiction** of a non-white figure is racist > [@MrDibble](#): > > Like you already said, **caricaturists** go for the lazy stereotype. For non-white subjects, that’s always the racist one, it seems. Not all cartoons or depictions are caricatures. I was quite specifically referencing caricature. So yes, making up shit I didn’t say. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2020, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/583 "2020-11-07T15:15:48Z")
I don’t like the banning of face coverings. Holocaust denial is such a very specific issue of something terrible tht happened in living memory. Still, it wasn’t done because there were roaming bands of Jews decapitating Holocaust deniers, in fact, that would’ve made it more difficult to enact. i don’t beleive, however to every specific instance of restrictions of freedom of speech are bad, however, they should be the least possible and never, made out of fear or, in a lay state, for religious reasons. Incitement to crime is not freedom of speech. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2020, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/584 "2020-11-07T15:16:57Z")
What if an Arab christian does the cartoon? That couldn’t be racist? ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2020, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/585 "2020-11-07T15:30:33Z")
France has not yet got its position on Holocaust denial straight either, for example when the Constitutional Council overturned a law criminalizing denial of the Armenian genocide as unconstitutional, whereas a similar law applying to the Jewish genocide was still deemed constitutional. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2020, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/586 "2020-11-07T15:55:09Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Not all cartoons or depictions are caricatures. I was quite specifically referencing caricature. So yes, making up shit I didn’t say. So… > [@MrDibble](#): > > It’s entirely possible to draw a _depiction_ of Muhammad that isn’t racist (although the motivation behind doing so will probably remain a racist one). Are you saying that someone motivated by racism to draw a depiction of Mohammed would not be guilty of racism? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2020, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/587 "2020-11-07T15:57:02Z")
Is Muhammad “_any_ … non-white figure”? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2020, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/588 "2020-11-07T16:09:25Z")
And before the stupid nitpickery - starts - I’m saying _current_, _Western_ depictions of Muhammad are motivated by racism. So don’t bother to drag out some 11th C. illumination or some contemporary depiction by a Sufi in the back-end of Sulawesi who doesn’t follow the nonrepresentation tradition. ---
**Author:** ![PlaceboTarget](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/placebotarget/32/1073_2.png) [@PlaceboTarget](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PlaceboTarget)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2020, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/589 "2020-11-07T16:29:45Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > And before the stupid nitpickery - starts - I’m saying _current_ , _Western_ depictions of Muhammad are motivated by racism. Because? Your fragmented discourse lacks the supporting evidence that would make your position rational instead of merely emotional, as it seems to be to me. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2020, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/590 "2020-11-07T16:30:40Z")
Nothing wrong with emotions. Nothing “mere” about them. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2020, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/591 "2020-11-07T16:32:01Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Is Muhammad “ _any_ … non-white figure”? No. He is obviously _A_ non white character, not _ANY_ non white character but come on, you know full well what is being asked of you. For the sake of clarity I’ll ask again in a really straigthforward manner. Is it possible for someone to draw an offensive/critical depiction or caraciture of a non-white character and for that _not_ to be racist in either intent or execution. I don’t know what’s so hard about a yes or no for this. ---
**Author:** ![PlaceboTarget](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/placebotarget/32/1073_2.png) [@PlaceboTarget](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PlaceboTarget)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2020, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/592 "2020-11-07T16:32:28Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Nothing wrong with emotions. Except it is an implicit admittance of bias, where all the racism seems to stem from. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2020, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/593 "2020-11-07T16:37:30Z")
You weren’t _asking_, you were putting words in my mouth: > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > You’ve already admitted that any cartoon or depiction of a non-white figure is racist Now you’ve backtracked that to “offensive/critical” depictions. And sure, of course it’s _possible_, if they do a realistic portrayal. But that’s not what caricaturists do. So I said I doubt they can. Doesn’t mean it isn’t possible, just means the lazy fucks _won’t_. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2020, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/594 "2020-11-07T16:40:03Z")
> [@PlaceboTarget](#): > > Except it is an implicit admittance of bias I’m sorry, are you perhaps a robot? Or a Vulcan? _All_ human social interactions carry bias. > [@PlaceboTarget](#): > > all the racism seems to stem from Emotions are also where all the _anti_-racism stems from. So what’s your point, again? ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2020, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/595 "2020-11-07T16:43:21Z")
Sadly, I can find no caricatures of strawmen moving goalposts. ---
**Author:** ![PlaceboTarget](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/placebotarget/32/1073_2.png) [@PlaceboTarget](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PlaceboTarget)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2020, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/596 "2020-11-07T16:49:34Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I’m sorry, are you perhaps a robot? Or a Vulcan? A civil discussion in a “Great Debates” forum requires that participants should not comment on the people they debate with. Please rephrase your question by referring to my post or the ideas included in it. > [@MrDibble](#): > > _All_ human social interactions carry bias. The negative consequences of the bias carried in all human social interactions can only be fought with the aid of people’s rational abilities. Those condoning or promoting bias when judging others denote a desire to fight only their opponents’ racism, but not racism in general, and especially not their own. > [@MrDibble](#): > > Emotions are also where all the _anti_ -racism stems from. So what’s your point, again? Please read the above. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2020, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/597 "2020-11-07T16:53:44Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Now you’ve backtracked that to “offensive/critical” depictions. The whole thread is about offensive and critical depictions whether by cartoon, caraciture or straight representation. I haven’t backtracked anywhere. I’m just probing where you draw the lines and how workable and helpful they are. > [@MrDibble](#): > > And sure, of course it’s _possible_ , if they do a realistic portrayal. So a realistic depiction of Mohammed having realistic gay sex would be fine? (Note, this would mean he would be in stereotypical dress and skin colouration.) You are saying there is no need to assume that would be motivated by racism either? > [@MrDibble](#): > > But that’s not what caricaturists do. So I said I doubt they can. Doesn’t mean it isn’t possible, just means the lazy fucks _won’t_ . You still seem to be dancing. This statement seems to be saying that no caraciture of a non-white person exists that isn’t racist and you don’t think they are able to. In what way then are you judging each on impartially and on indivdual merit? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2020, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/598 "2020-11-07T17:46:50Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > The whole thread is about offensive and critical depictions whether by cartoon, caraciture or straight representation. I haven’t backtracked anywhere. You wrongly attributed a stance on _all_ depictions to me. So yes, backtracking. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > So a realistic depiction of Mohammed having realistic gay sex would be fine? No. I’ve been quite clear that all depictions of Muhammad are _not_ fine because they’re all motivated by racist Islamophobia. I was referring to depictions of _other_ non-white people. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > You still seem to be dancing. You still seem to have trouble reading what I write. But I’m done explaining it to you. Go back and reread. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2020, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/599 "2020-11-07T17:50:00Z")
> [@PlaceboTarget](#): > > A civil discussion in a “Great Debates” forum requires that participants should not comment on the people they debate with. And accusing someone of bias _isn’t_ commenting on the people you debate with? You first. > [@PlaceboTarget](#): > > The negative consequences of the bias carried in all human social interactions can only be fought with the aid of people’s rational abilities. Bullshit. Hearts _and_ minds. > [@PlaceboTarget](#): > > especially not their own. Perhaps you meant this last little bit for a Pit thread? ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2020, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/600 "2020-11-07T18:07:01Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > No. I’ve been quite clear that all depictions of Muhammad are _not_ fine because they’re all motivated by racist Islamophobia. I now have absolutely no idea what you actually think. Not from this sentence, nor from the previous answers you gave. You seemed to suggest in other answers that some depictions of Mohammed might be OK and yet here you clearly state that they are all motivated by racism. I’ll leave it to someone else to decode this. ---
**Author:** ![PlaceboTarget](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/placebotarget/32/1073_2.png) [@PlaceboTarget](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PlaceboTarget)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2020, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/601 "2020-11-07T18:12:42Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > And accusing someone of bias _isn’t_ commenting on the people you debate with? I have made no accusations. Please provide the quote that supports your claim. > [@MrDibble](#): > > Bullshit. Hearts _and_ minds. This is a vulgar and hollow comment that demonstrates rudeness and lack of arguments. A debate carried out in good faith involves being polite. Please stop making comments about my person and avoid using the pronoun “you.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221.md?page=29) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221.md?page=31)