# France and the cartoons of Mohammed; what's your take? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 29, 2020, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221 "2020-10-29T16:49:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2020, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/101 "2020-10-30T14:00:28Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > My take? Fuck Mohammed, fuck Moe’s mother, fuck jesus, Mary, the pope, buddha, Zeus, Neptune, Casper, and the cat in the hat. The problem isn’t Mohammed, Jesus, Buddha, Neptune etc. The problem is the people who do horrific things and blame it on them. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2020, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/102 "2020-10-30T14:11:28Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > The problem is the people who do horrific things and blame it on them. Fuck them as well. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2020, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/103 "2020-10-30T14:19:38Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > And, I think that’s what the reasonable people who are offended by these depictions need to do. Convince the rest of France that these depictions are really beyond the pale to them, and different for them than negative depictions of Christians or the Pope are. Convince people that this is like the n-word to them or Jewish Holocaust jokes, not just a send-up of their spiritual leader. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Criticizing the Hebdo cartoons is complicated by the murderous response to them. Most folks (in my Pollyannaish world) don’t want to be associated with murderers. And murder is such an obviously OTT response toa cartoon that folks are like, “I can’t even talk about how the cartoons are racist as long as the creators are getting murdered.” > > Way I figure it, it’s okay to walk and chew gum at the same time. It’s okay to say, “Fight free speech with free speech, not with murder; but yeah, that’s some asshole free speech right there, and let’s stop being assholes also.” Some of this actually reminds me of the Black Lives Matter movement in the US. There are a number of people who want to conflate the rioters with the peaceful protestors. And thus consider the protests to be violent per se. In the same way that those who object to racist depictions of Muhammed (as Charlie Hebdo’s were undoubtably) are dismissed because the most radical Muslims use it as an excuse for violence. Unfortunately I think the inability to say ‘yes these cartoons are beyond the pale, but they have the right to display them without violence’ may lead to further radicalization, especially when they are projected on buildings. ---
**Author:** ![ZosterSandstorm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e0b2c6/32.png) [@ZosterSandstorm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZosterSandstorm)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2020, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/104 "2020-10-30T14:27:58Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Contrast that with, say, Western reactions to Muslim depictions of Jews… nobody yelling about Freeze Peach then. Who was killed over “Western reactions to Muslim depictions of Jews?” Who even called for them to be censored? I think you may be posting from an alternate history timeline. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2020, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/105 "2020-10-30T14:30:40Z")
If some group decided to project a Confederate Flag on the side of a building in the US, they would shunned by most of polite society. That’s because of the hard work of lots of people for many years, who got the truth out about the awful symbolism of that flag and its history as a white supremacist marker. That’s the kind of work and dedication that moderate Muslims would have to put in in France in order for depictions of Muhammed to have the same effect on polite society. Personally, I think racist symbols are worse than things that are offensive to one’s religion, but that’s probably because I’m not religious at all. Also, religion is not something you’re born with, it’s not an inherent part of you, like race or sexual orientation. That said, it’s not like I’m creating cartoons of Muhammed, or artwork like Piss Christ either. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2020, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/106 "2020-10-30T14:30:59Z")
> [@ZosterSandstorm](#): > > Who was killed over “Western reactions to Muslim depictions of Jews?” Who said anyone was? > [@](#): > > Who even called for them to be censored? Censoring? Naah. Censure? Plenty. > [@](#): > > I think you may be posting from an alternate history timeline. Maybe _you_ would be better off posting in the Pit? ---
**Author:** ![lum\_s\_husband](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lum_s_husband/32/3698_2.png) [@lum\_s\_husband](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lum_s_husband)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2020, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/107 "2020-10-30T14:32:48Z")
That’s an easy experiment to run. Project a racist Jewish caricature on the side of a government building and see the reaction you get. It will not be a robust discussion of free speech. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2020, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/108 "2020-10-30T14:39:39Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > Personally, I think racist symbols are worse than things that are offensive to one’s religion, but that’s probably because I’m not religious at all. Also, religion is not something you’re born with, it’s not an inherent part of you, like race or sexual orientation. That said, it’s not like I’m creating cartoons of Muhammed, or artwork like Piss Christ either. From the perspective of religious people, it’s considered quite an inherent part of them (yes, yes, I know… it isn’t genetic and one can switch). So that may be why the reaction of offended religious people can feel similar to offended racial minorities. My parents are Muslim - they consider themselves Muslim almost equally, if not more, than being Pakistani. (And the following may confirm but also counter your point at the same time) I’m a Lutheran Christian and I consider that an essential part of my identity - as much as being South Asian. Though, saying all that, a lot of times Islamophobic depictions are racist as well as being anti-religion. Lots of turbaned Arabs (even though the turban is usually worn by Sikhs… who are not Muslim nor Arab). ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2020, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/109 "2020-10-30T14:52:40Z")
> [@lum\_s\_husband](#): > > That’s an easy experiment to run. Project a racist Jewish caricature on the side of a government building and see the reaction you get. It will not be a robust discussion of free speech. Even if we were to revisit the recent French history regarding Jews, along with the whole Holocaust unpleasantness, I doubt very much you’d find Ultra-Orthodox Jews out trying to murder people. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2020, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/110 "2020-10-30T15:15:17Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > > [@lum\_s\_husband](#): > > > > Project a racist Jewish caricature on the side of a government building and see the reaction you get. It will not be a robust discussion of free speech. > > Even if we were to revisit the recent French history regarding Jews, along with the whole Holocaust unpleasantness, I doubt very much you’d find Ultra-Orthodox Jews out trying to murder people. Yeah, the thought experiment is ineffective. Perhaps the point he was making was that you’d immediately be shunned, shamed, boycotted, online “cancelled”?Well, it so happens those are _acceptable_ reactions to offensive expression. That nobody would be out there saying “oh but he should be able to do that”? I don’t get it. The discussion in the French case happens because of the material fact that there’s a faction seeking to impose actual deadly force as the way to dissuade that to which they take offense, and most people are insisting that freedom of expression means you DON’T use deadly force to counter expression that bothers you, however much it may bother you and however much an ass the expresser may be. In our Western cultures, if you want to stop someone saying something hateful, you do not kill them, you seek to make it socially unacceptable. ---
**Author:** ![lum\_s\_husband](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lum_s_husband/32/3698_2.png) [@lum\_s\_husband](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lum_s_husband)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2020, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/111 "2020-10-30T15:16:06Z")
You would find that the government’s commitment to free speech is not actually existent in that instance. ---
**Author:** ![lum\_s\_husband](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lum_s_husband/32/3698_2.png) [@lum\_s\_husband](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lum_s_husband)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2020, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/112 "2020-10-30T15:17:51Z")
It is so acceptable that the French government is demanding that other nations use state power to stop boycotts of French products. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2020, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/113 "2020-10-30T15:19:17Z")
Then it’s a fine thing that none of _ **us, here** _ is a member of the French Government, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2020, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/114 "2020-10-30T15:22:54Z")
> [@lum\_s\_husband](#): > > It is so acceptable that the French government is demanding that other nations use state power to stop boycotts of French products. And are they being taken seriously, by any of these other nations? ---
**Author:** ![ZosterSandstorm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e0b2c6/32.png) [@ZosterSandstorm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZosterSandstorm)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2020, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/115 "2020-10-30T15:28:02Z")
Racist caricatures of Jews _are_ published all the time by Muslim governments as well as by the extreme right and left in the West and not only is no one killed over it, nobody really cares enough to notice. I don’t know why people think this is some magic gotcha. ---
**Author:** ![lum\_s\_husband](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lum_s_husband/32/3698_2.png) [@lum\_s\_husband](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lum_s_husband)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2020, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/116 "2020-10-30T15:29:39Z")
No one cares enough to notice but somehow everyone knows all about it. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2020, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/117 "2020-10-30T15:42:04Z")
Do you really think that Jews generally believe that anti-semitimism is no longer an issue around the globe? They do not. They simply don’t believe that it justifies murdering people over it. It is not a doctrine of the Jewish religion to kill apostates and infidels for insults. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2020, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/118 "2020-10-30T17:37:15Z")
There should be no issue with so called provocative speech. At some point adults need to show some emotional maturity. Again we used to expect more from 5 year olds than we do from current so-called adults. Allowing or even encouraging a heckler’s veto, while of utility on message boards, is not compatible with liberty. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2020, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/119 "2020-10-30T17:44:29Z")
You ought to be a free speech fan. Is it not in your best interests to live in a world of freedom and rational thought? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2020, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/120 "2020-10-30T18:47:29Z")
[These things aren’t uncontroversially linked.](https://www.boldtypebooks.com/titles/pe-moskowitz/the-case-against-free-speech/9781568588667/#module-whats-inside) I encourage you to read the intro at the link. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221.md?page=7)