# France and the cartoons of Mohammed; what's your take? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 29, 2020, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221 "2020-10-29T16:49:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2020, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/121 "2020-10-31T01:58:07Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > There should be no issue with so called provocative speech. {…} To be clear, then you would completely oppose anyone, say a BLM or Antifa leader, being charged with incitement to riot? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2020, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/122 "2020-10-31T02:34:39Z")
I typically don’t care what people have to say. Now, when molotov cocktails start flying and big screen tvs are being carried out the store arrests should be made. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2020, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/123 "2020-10-31T02:44:56Z")
A non-answer if there ever was one. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2020, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/124 "2020-10-31T03:58:12Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > To be clear, then you would completely oppose anyone, say a BLM or Antifa leader, being charged with incitement to riot? I hope it’s okay to jump in here … because I think that’s a fascinating question. I think incitement to riot is a legal concept with a clear and distinct [definition](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2102), making it wholly dependent on what was done and why. To wit (emphasis mine), > As used in this chapter, the term “to incite a [riot](https://www.law.cornell.edu/definitions/uscode.php?width=840&height=800&iframe=true&def_id=18-USC-3500636-1417857063&term_occur=999&term_src=title:18:part:I:chapter:102:section:2102)”, or “to **organize, promote, encourage** , participate in, or carry on a [riot](https://www.law.cornell.edu/definitions/uscode.php?width=840&height=800&iframe=true&def_id=18-USC-3500636-1417857063&term_occur=999&term_src=title:18:part:I:chapter:102:section:2102)”, includes, but is not limited to, urging or instigating other persons to [riot](https://www.law.cornell.edu/definitions/uscode.php?width=840&height=800&iframe=true&def_id=18-USC-3500636-1417857063&term_occur=999&term_src=title:18:part:I:chapter:102:section:2102), **but shall not be deemed to mean** the mere oral or written (1) advocacy of ideas or (2) expression of belief, not involving advocacy of any act or acts of violence or assertion of the rightness of, or the right to commit, any such act or acts. I think incitement to riot, legally, involves substantively different predicate events (and intent). ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2020, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/125 "2020-10-31T08:17:55Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > You ought to be a free speech fan. Just like gods - I’d be a big fan _if_ I thought it was something that could actually ever exist. It doesn’t, and I’m not a fan of the _ersatz_ version currently paraded as though it were genuine. > [@](#): > > Is it not in your best interests to live in a world of freedom and rational thought? Yes. That is why I am opposed to “free” speech. The paradox of tolerance is real. ---
**Author:** ![Brayne\_Ded](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Brayne\_Ded](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brayne_Ded)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2020, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/126 "2020-10-31T13:41:36Z")
Free speech is the ideal, but in practice there are restrictions, and the main ones are libel, slander and hate speech. ---
**Author:** ![Brayne\_Ded](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Brayne\_Ded](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brayne_Ded)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2020, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/127 "2020-10-31T13:47:34Z")
“There should be no issue with so called provocative speech. At some point adults need to show some emotional maturity.” True, to state the obvious, but a good many extremists are precisely that because they lack emotional balance and maturity. It gets worse if they invoke ideology or religion, which in the last resort are highly emotional topics. Your solution? ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2020, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/128 "2020-10-31T22:08:17Z")
The issue seems fairly straightforward to me (not having read much of the thread, but familiar with the situation). It is generally considered polite not to make fun of other religions or the things or people that they hold sacred. However, no person or religion or other force has the right to kill someone because they were rude. The way to enforce this is to enforce it rigorously and consistently, until Islam is forced to alter its interpretation of scripture to coincide with the real world and the fact that there are other people in it. Any idea that the speech of everyone should be curtailed because it makes some group of people really angry, when there is no other damage than ridicule and rudeness, is surely the way to lose to religious tyranny. If the non-radical Islamists cannot have any beneficial influence in this regard, then it certainly looks like there will be a long and ugly fight. My apologies if this repeats ground already thoroughly covered, but OP asked for opinions, and this is mine. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2020, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/129 "2020-11-01T01:25:46Z")
The thing is freedom of speech depends on a certain set of moral axioms. These moral axioms may be contradicted by another set of axioms. Ultimately force is required to ensure that a society governed by one set of moral axioms is able to survive. So, we as a society need to be forceful in protecting freedom of expression. Even freedom of expression that is blasphemous or otherwise offensive. Furthermore, we need to be tolerant of the expression of ideas and beliefs that we may find abhorrent. We also need to crack down on extrajudicial or mob actions, regardless of whether or not we agree with the outcome, that seek to deny others their liberties. I’m not sure that’s possible anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2020, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/130 "2020-11-01T07:39:40Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Yes. That is why I am opposed to “free” speech. The paradox of tolerance is real. The paradox as described by Popper only comes into play when the right to free expression by a tolerant society at large is challenged by the views being expressed. Only then is some form of supression potentially valid and only in exceptional circumstances. Other than that, you let free speech have free reign. In the case of the cartoons, it seems to me that challenge actually comes from the actions of the cartoon _protesters_. They are intolerant to the point of violence and muder and if any supressions were needed one could argue it is there. Indeed, their holy book even preaches death, violence and hatred to a greater extent than any of the cartoonists ever do. Those that drew the cartoons are not threatening anyone’s ability or right or tolerance in general. They are no threat to tolerance and no supression of their actions is required. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2020, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/131 "2020-11-01T12:24:36Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > The paradox as described by Popper only comes into play when the right to free expression by a tolerant society at large is challenged by the views being expressed. Like, say, blatantly racist cartoons making a mockery of any claim by a society to be tolerant … you may not recognize it, but allowing racist cartoons by a mass-media publication _is_ a challenge to free expression, because it’s privileged speech that causes an atmosphere of fear in its victim class. They will see larger society as condoning the speech by consenting to it (at the same time that society stuffs them into banlieues and targets their religious expression while thinking disallowing crucifixes _isn’t_ an obvious smokescreen…). Popper says only the intolerances that can’t be combatted by reasoned discourse are up for suppression. Well, racist popular media isn’t subject to discourse, it’s not an equal-time debate forum. Western European society already practices intolerance of intolerance. For instance, advocating a second Holocaust or an Islamist Jihad would get shut down right sharpish. But racist Islamophobia in cartoon form is seemingly still A-OK. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Those that drew the cartoons are not threatening anyone’s ability or right or tolerance in general. They are no threat to tolerance and no supression of their actions is required. I’m sure Fips was no threat to anyone’s ability or right or tolerance in general as well … just a cartoonist, after all, not gassing anyone. There’s quite a lot of a middle ground between beheading people and just harmless cartoons, and some cartoons still fall on the “things that shouldn’t be tolerated by a just society” side of that, right along with beheading people. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2020, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/132 "2020-11-01T12:30:31Z")
And in case anyone thinks I’m on the side of the Islamicists here, I’m definitely not. I’m in favour of limiting _both_ their speech _as well_ as racist Islamophobic cartoons. And, shouldn’t need to say this, but murders are obviously right out too. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2020, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/133 "2020-11-01T13:26:04Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Like, say, blatantly racist cartoons making a mockery of any claim by a society to be tolerant I believe in a free society you are going to have to live with some cartoons or publications that some people will find to be racist or otherwise offensive. What are the logical results of attempting such a value judgement? I find sections of the major religious texts to be hugely offensive, far more so than an arguably racist cartoon in that they specifically call for death and violence. They also could be said to make a mockery of a society’s claim to be tolerant. On what basis would you ban cartoons but not books or texts? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2020, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/134 "2020-11-01T13:27:07Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I believe in a free society you are going to have to live with some cartoons or publications that some people will find to be racist or otherwise offensive. So, _Der Giftpilz_, just A-OK to publish, for you? > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > What are the logical results of attempting such a value judgement? A more tolerant society - the kind that Western Europe used to be, until they gave up tolerance when it wore a kufiya. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > On what basis would you ban cartoons but not books or texts? Oh, I’d happily ban those, as well. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2020, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/135 "2020-11-01T13:29:50Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > So, _Der Giftpilz_ , just A-OK to publish, for you? I don’t know what that is > [@MrDibble](#): > > Oh, I’d happily ban those, as well. And down the rabbit-hole we go ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2020, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/136 "2020-11-01T13:31:22Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > But racist Islamophobia in cartoon form is seemingly still A-OK. How ofter does this kind of thing happen in the EU? I’ve heard of two main instances over the past 10(?) years. One by a Dutch cartoonist, the another in France (Charlie Hebdo). It seems that those two instances are getting a lot of outrage mileage. The most recent instances were “provoked” by a professor who issued a trigger warning before the ensuing discussion in a class about freedom of speech. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2020, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/137 "2020-11-01T13:32:41Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I don’t know what that is Is your Google broken? > [@](#): > > And down the rabbit-hole we go Slopes are only as slippery as we let them be… ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2020, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/138 "2020-11-01T13:34:27Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Is your Google broken? This manner of exchange tends to end a conversation. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2020, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/139 "2020-11-01T13:35:04Z")
You think Charlie Hebdo only published the _one_ racist cartoon? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2020, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/140 "2020-11-01T13:35:35Z")
I don’t know. That is why I asked. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221.md?page=8)