# France at a political crossroads **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 23, 2007, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-at-a-political-crossroads/401230 "2007-04-23T01:05:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2007, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-at-a-political-crossroads/401230/1 "2007-04-23T01:05:45Z")
The French will go to the polls on May 6th [elect a new president.](http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/04/22/france.election/index.html) Nicolas Sarkozy is pro-american, pro-capitalism and pro economic reform. Segolene Royal is a socialist. This should be interesting. I hope that Sarkozy wins. The French economy has been suffering from the ills of socialism for quite a while now. Taxes are extremely high, the social service system is overburdened and the jobless rate is very high. Royal represents the status quo, Sarkozy represents a radical depature from it. It will be interesting to see what choice the French make. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2007, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-at-a-political-crossroads/401230/2 "2007-04-23T01:45:46Z")
5 euros on Royal. The last time the French did anything remotely sane was 1789. ---
**Author:** ![Malodorous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e47774/32.png) [@Malodorous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malodorous)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2007, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-at-a-political-crossroads/401230/3 "2007-04-23T02:19:48Z")
[QUOTE=Evil One] Royal represents the status quo, Sarkozy represents a radical depature from it. [/QUOTE] The candidate for the incumbent party is a radical departure from the status quo? ---
**Author:** ![rv.radio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d78d45/32.png) [@rv.radio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rv.radio)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2007, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-at-a-political-crossroads/401230/4 "2007-04-23T02:21:15Z")
France has had a right wing president for the last 12 years if they were to really reform the economy they had plenty of time to do it under Chirac. I fail to see how voting for Sarkozy will serve as a change for the french people. ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2007, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-at-a-political-crossroads/401230/5 "2007-04-23T02:25:56Z")
Royal is a socialist, but more of a “third way” socialist in the vein of Tony Blair than a traditional one. Sarkozy is a rightist, and as **Evil One** says he is pro-capitalist (don’t know about pro-American, he’s probably not anti-American but I don’t expect him to toe the US line either), but as far as I know what he’s been mostly talking about in the last few months was the need for more security and less immigration. In other words, he’s been playing in the water of the far right. (I haven’t been paying close attention to the French election, though, so it’s possible he’s touched other issues too.) So we can’t describe the main candidates in terms of left and right in the American sense. We also can’t describe them in terms of “status quo” and “change”. Royal, as I said, is a different kind of socialist than what the French are used to. Sarkozy is also a different kind of rightist. And I should also mention the honourable showing of centrist candidate François Bayrou, who finished third but would have had a good chance of winning if he’d been able to qualify for the runoff. His comment was that it means that the French are starting to reject the status quo of left vs. right politics. Of course, that’s what you’d expect him to say. But it does illustrate the fact that both left and right (they are of course not the same left and right as in the US) are entrenched in France’s political debate. I’m curious to see what our French posters ( **clairobscur** , **Themenin** , etc.) and other posters in France have to say about this election. Right now it seems that Sarkozy will win the election. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2007, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-at-a-political-crossroads/401230/6 "2007-04-23T02:26:43Z")
[QUOTE=silenus] 5 euros on Royal. The last time the French did anything remotely sane was 1789. [/QUOTE] And look how **that** worked out! 😉 Comparing [this](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolas_Sarkozy#Criticism_and_controversy) with [this,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%A9gol%C3%A8ne_Royal#Policies) I **hope** it’s Royal! Sarkozy is a crazy xeonophic right-wing authoritarian populist. Royal is a “socialist,” only not really. From [_In These Times:_](http://www.inthesetimes.com/article/3094/the_royal_road_to_irrelevance/) > [@](#): > > The Socialists’ candidate, Ségolène Royal, is the first woman ever nominated by a major party and is often called in the press “the French Hillary.” (It’s not meant as a compliment.) A fervent admirer of Tony Blair and his “Third Way,” Royal built her candidacy on “family values” and a hard line on law-and-order, proposing, for example, that juvenile delinquents be turned over to the military for “re-education.” > > She faces a formidable opponent: right-wing candidate Nicolas Sarkozy, boss of the conservative UMP party founded by incumbent President Jacques Chirac. A skilled demagogue and master media manipulator who benefits from the favor of the conservative media barons, Sarkozy is a tough, law-and-order interior minister who spear-headed a crackdown on France’s Arab and black immigrants, deporting them wholesale. His borderline racist comments helped fan the flames of the suburban ghetto riots that set France ablaze in the fall of 2005. ---
**Author:** ![Malodorous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e47774/32.png) [@Malodorous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malodorous)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2007, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-at-a-political-crossroads/401230/7 "2007-04-23T02:40:39Z")
One would think a “third way” socialist might have more luck passing economic reforms without as much of the suspicion and protest that Chirac was met with when he attempted to pass similar changes. ---
**Author:** ![FRDE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FRDE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FRDE)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2007, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-at-a-political-crossroads/401230/8 "2007-04-23T11:02:31Z")
I understand that Royal is a product of the French political machine, something like the Ecole d’Administracion - which makes me suspect that she’ll not make many changes. Sarkozy sounds interesting, he has his finger on the pulse of those that are worried by sink estates full of Arabs and immigrant Africans, but I’m pretty sure that he is unlikely to do anything to upset the vast majority of the population who are doing very well. The students rioting about the proposal to remove any job security should have been enough to make him realize that the problem is that 80% (say) are doing very nicely and the other 20% want to get in on the game - not change the game. From what I’ve seen, France is well run, affluent, and a nice place to live. It appears to have a high level of productivity but high unemployment among certain very specific sectors. I can see him continuing his harsh approach to civil disorder and illegal immigration, cutting a bit of bureaucratic red tape and breaking up sink estates. France is not in the mess the UK was in, back in 1979, when we elected Thatcher, it is actually doing rather well, especially when compared to the UK - which is all smoke, mirrors and hype. While I’m not that au fait with French politics, I would say that Sarkozy is a natural replacement for Chirac and he is not going to tear up the rule book - although he will confront problems head on, rather than try to disguise them. I would be very surprized if Royal landed up as President, and very surprized if Sarkozy did more than sort out a few messes. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2007, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-at-a-political-crossroads/401230/9 "2007-04-23T12:41:05Z")
[QUOTE=FRDE] Sarkozy sounds interesting, he has his finger on the pulse of those that are worried by sink estates full of Arabs and immigrant Africans . . . [/QUOTE] What are “sink estates”? ---
**Author:** ![Twisty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7ab992/32.png) [@Twisty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Twisty)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2007, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-at-a-political-crossroads/401230/10 "2007-04-23T12:48:59Z")
Sink Estates are effectively ghettoes. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2007, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-at-a-political-crossroads/401230/11 "2007-04-23T12:54:59Z")
[QUOTE=silenus] 5 euros on Royal. The last time the French did anything remotely sane was 1789. [/QUOTE] I think not swallowing Bush’s cock and bull story on WMD was doing something sane. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2007, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-at-a-political-crossroads/401230/12 "2007-04-23T13:11:48Z")
[QUOTE=Malodorous] One would think a “third way” socialist might have more luck passing economic reforms without as much of the suspicion and protest that Chirac was met with when he attempted to pass similar changes. [/QUOTE] Quite. Just like Blair took the Thatcher project well beyond limits she could only dream of surpassing. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2007, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-at-a-political-crossroads/401230/13 "2007-04-23T13:29:20Z")
[QUOTE=BobLibDem] I think not swallowing Bush’s cock [/QUOTE] This describes Blair quite effectively… ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2007, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-at-a-political-crossroads/401230/14 "2007-04-23T13:33:22Z")
[QUOTE=jjimm] This describes Blair quite effectively… [/QUOTE] But aren’t the French famously better at it? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2007, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-at-a-political-crossroads/401230/15 "2007-04-23T14:00:16Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Sarkozy is a crazy xeonophic right-wing authoritarian populist. [/QUOTE] 🙂 No, that’s Le Pen. Sarkozy isn’t that bad. He just sometimes says unfortunate things. ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2007, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-at-a-political-crossroads/401230/16 "2007-04-23T14:23:10Z")
[QUOTE=BobLibDem] I think not swallowing Bush’s cock and bull story on WMD was doing something sane. [/QUOTE] Well, it took only 11 posts until an irrelevant Bush-bashing. Not bad. I heard an interview with Sarkozy, in which he said, “If you talk about the poor committing crimes, you’re called an elitist. If you talk about immigrant communities, you’re called a racist. But these are real issues and we need to have a real discussion.” Later on: “The problem with our economy is not that we work too much, but because we work too little.” I can’t imagine a major candidate in an American election being that forthright, and I think it’s quite admirable. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2007, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-at-a-political-crossroads/401230/17 "2007-04-23T17:32:55Z")
[QUOTE=Captain Amazing] 🙂 No, that’s Le Pen. Sarkozy isn’t that bad. He just sometimes says unfortunate things. [/QUOTE] To paraphrase what some on this board say of Chavez and Castro: Sarkozy is Le Pen Lite. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2007, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-at-a-political-crossroads/401230/18 "2007-04-23T17:34:21Z")
[QUOTE=athelas] Later on: “The problem with our economy is not that we work too much, but because we work too little.” [/QUOTE] **Is** that the problem with France’s economy? If so, may Og smite America with the same! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2007, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-at-a-political-crossroads/401230/19 "2007-04-23T17:39:34Z")
[QUOTE=athelas] I heard an interview with Sarkozy, in which he said, “If you talk about the poor committing crimes, you’re called an elitist. If you talk about immigrant communities, you’re called a racist. But these are real issues and we need to have a real discussion.” [/QUOTE] But consider [the sort of thing the rat-bastard considers a solution:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolas_Sarkozy#Violent_arrests) > [@](#): > > Nicolas Sarkozy is also known for a memorandum bearing his name (the ‘circulaire Sarkozy’), that he signed as a Minister for the Interior, on June 13th, 2006. In this decision sent to all prefects of France (his representatives in the provinces), he proposed to hand some immigration papers to immigrant families with kids integrated in French schools. A strict series of conditions were listed in order to accept the regularization of the situation of these families (proofs of integration in the country, proof of job, etc.). This offer attracted a large number of applications (around 25.000) handed to police services, usually under the advice of charities of specialized social associations. Unfortunately for the applicants, most of the files were refused, while still matching the ‘Sarkozy memo’ criteria. It appeared later that the minister had fixed, beforehand, a number of “about 6000” files to be accepted, whatever happened. The remaining 20,000 or so people have however been carefully registered in police files, including their personal address, and moreover the kid’s school (one of the criteria was providing school certificates). Most criticism is expressed about that ‘trap’ that these immigrants were sent in. As a matter of fact, the number of manu militari expulsions have increased a lot, since this circular, including shocking cases of parents being arrested when collecting their kids in front of their schools. A couple of cases of kids being arrested in schools have also been reported, as well as teachers usually hiding them in from the police. Some relatively violent arrest attempts lead to resistance from other parents and/or teachers or school headmasters, in particular in Paris (March 2007). ---
**Author:** ![Malodorous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e47774/32.png) [@Malodorous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malodorous)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2007, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-at-a-political-crossroads/401230/20 "2007-04-23T17:41:47Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] **Is** that the problem with France’s economy? If so, may Og smite America with the same! [/QUOTE] If working people worked more, there would be a need for fewer of them and the unemployment rate would go up, no? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-at-a-political-crossroads/401230.md?page=2)