# France at a political crossroads **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 23, 2007, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-at-a-political-crossroads/401230 "2007-04-23T01:05:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2007, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-at-a-political-crossroads/401230/21 "2007-04-23T17:50:24Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] To paraphrase what some on this board say of Chavez and Castro: Sarkozy is Le Pen Lite. [/QUOTE] He’s not, though. He talks about immigration and cultural assimilation the way that Le Pen does, but his solutions to the problems are different. He wants to tighten up immigration controls, to encourage immigration of people with useful skills into France and discourage the poor and untrained. At the same time, he wants to help Muslims integrate into French society, so that there isn’t a divide between being Muslim and being French. Le Pen just wants the immigrants out. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2007, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-at-a-political-crossroads/401230/22 "2007-04-23T18:21:48Z")
[QUOTE=athelas] Well, it took only 11 posts until an irrelevant Bush-bashing. Not bad. [/QUOTE] I’m not sure how irrelevant it is. Much of the France-bashing you hear in the US is a result of France’s refusal to go along with the adventures of W. To the extent that French-bashing is a reflection of resentment over their failure to go along with the Iraq war, then Bush-bashing in return is relevant. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2007, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-at-a-political-crossroads/401230/23 "2007-04-23T18:37:12Z")
[QUOTE=BobLibDem] To the extent that French-bashing is a reflection of resentment over their failure to go along with the Iraq war, then Bush-bashing in return is relevant. [/QUOTE] I hate to break this to you Bob…but ‘French-bashing’ pre-dates Bush by several decades (and if we are talking about the Brits, several centuries 😛 ). For that matter, US-bashing by the French pre-dates Bush by those same time periods. The current excuse for bashing the French may be their refusal to help us out for GWII…but the root causes on both sides, as well as all the good bashing fun, goes back long before that. -XT ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2007, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-at-a-political-crossroads/401230/24 "2007-04-23T18:52:05Z")
Well yes and a time-honored tactic in American politics used to be twisting the Lion’s (British) tail. Certainly the French are as much a traditional punching bag as any. But the real crap like Freedom Fries and Freedom Toast started in Bush’s Reign of Error. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2007, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-at-a-political-crossroads/401230/25 "2007-04-23T19:00:26Z")
[QUOTE=xtisme] I hate to break this to you Bob…but ‘French-bashing’ pre-dates Bush by several decades (and if we are talking about the Brits, several centuries 😛 ). For that matter, US-bashing by the French pre-dates Bush by those same time periods. The current excuse for bashing the French may be their refusal to help us out for GWII…but the root causes on both sides, as well as all the good bashing fun, goes back long before that. -XT [/QUOTE] OTOH, and despite any mutual cultural distaste, the U.S. and France were solid friends and allies from our Revolution onwards, until just a few years ago. Heck, we were even _de facto_ allies with Napoleon, in the sense of being at war with Britain at the same time as he was. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2007, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-at-a-political-crossroads/401230/26 "2007-04-23T19:04:17Z")
> **[Cheese-eating surrender monkeys](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheese-eating_surrender_monkeys)** > > "Cheese-eating surrender monkeys", sometimes shortened to "surrender monkeys", is a pejorative term for French people. The term is based on the stereotype of the French that they surrender quickly. It was coined in 1995 by Ken Keeler, a writer for the television series The Simpsons, and has entered two Oxford quotation dictionaries. > The French and the British have a history of mocking one another. Despite some being offended, generally both sides take it in the spirit it was meant to be taken, a... Wanna bet, Bob? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2007, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-at-a-political-crossroads/401230/27 "2007-04-23T21:06:58Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Well yes and a time-honored tactic in American politics used to be twisting the Lion’s (British) tail. Certainly the French are as much a traditional punching bag as any. But the real crap like Freedom Fries and Freedom Toast started in Bush’s Reign of Error. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=BrainGlutton] OTOH, and despite any mutual cultural distaste, the U.S. and France were solid friends and allies from our Revolution onwards, until just a few years ago. Heck, we were even de facto allies with Napoleon, in the sense of being at war with Britain at the same time as he was. [/QUOTE] Well…no. The US and France have almost ALWAYS had a up and down relationship. Names have flown back and forth for decades…even centuries…between the US and France. The whole ‘Freedom Fries’ and ‘Freedom Toast’ thing is just a new face on an old and traditional period mutual loathing. While its true that the US and France WERE friends during the American Revolution as BG points out, we also went to war with France shortly after that (I think it was sometime in the 1790’s), and I don’t think anyone would characterize our relationship with France as ‘solid allies’ from our Revolution onward. Especially post-WWII there were a LOT of tensions between France and the US as both countries sought to assert their foreign policy and dominance in Europe. In fact, I think a lot worse things were said about France in the US (and vice versa) in the 60’s and 70’s than now…the ‘Freedom Fries’ thing is pretty mild compared to some of the stuff I remember from my own youth when France would pull one of its various stunts. It used to be that American’s getting treated like shit in France was practically a byword…so we are talking about a mutual thing here. That said, the US and France have also had times where we stood shoulder to shoulder and sort of resembled ‘allies’. 😛 Anyway, all this is obviously a hijack…France doesn’t stand at a crossroads because we are on one of the periodic spikes where both countries (and a large percentage of our mutual citizenry) tacitly loathe each other. -XT ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2007, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-at-a-political-crossroads/401230/28 "2007-04-23T21:10:48Z")
[QUOTE=xtisme] While its true that the US and France WERE friends during the American Revolution as BG points out, we also went to war with France shortly after that (I think it was sometime in the 1790’s) . . . [/QUOTE] No, we didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2007, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-at-a-political-crossroads/401230/29 "2007-04-23T21:14:14Z")
[Yes](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quasi-War), we did (though we didn’t DECLARE war, if thats what you are getting at): > [@](#): > > The Quasi-War was an undeclared war fought entirely at sea between the United States and France from 1798 to 1800. In the United States, the conflict is sometimes also referred to as the Undeclared War with France. > [@](#): > > The US Navy operated with a battle fleet of roughly 30 vessels. The Navy patrolled the southern coast of the United States and throughout the Caribbean, seeking out French privateers. Captain Thomas Truxtun’s insistence on the highest standards of crew training paid handsome dividends as the frigate Constellation captured L’Insurgente, and severely punished La Vengeance. Often, French privateers showed great audacity, as was the case with the privateer La Croyable, which was captured on July 7, 1798, by Delaware outside of Egg Harbor, New Jersey. The Enterprise captured over 20 French privateers. Experiment captured the Deux Amis, and Diane. Numerous American merchantmen were likewise recaptured by the Experiment. The Boston summarily pounded Le Berceau into submission. Silas Talbot engineered an expedition in the Puerto Plata harbor in St. Domingo, a possession of France’s ally Spain, on May 11, 1800, in which sailors and marines of the Constitution under Lieutenant Isaac Hull cut out the French privateer Sandwich from the harbor and spiked the guns in the Spanish fort. > > Of all of the vessels operating under command of the US Navy, only one vessel was captured—and later recaptured—by enemy forces: Retaliation. Retaliation was the captured privateer La Croyable, recently purchased by the US Navy. Retaliation departed Norfolk on October 28, 1798, with Montezuma and Norfolk and cruised in the West Indies protecting American commerce. On November 20, the French frigates L’Insurgente and Volontaire overtook Retaliation while her consorts were away on a chase and forced commanding officer Lieutenant William Bainbridge to surrender the out-gunned schooner. However, even as a prisoner, the clever young American officer managed to serve his country. He saved USS Montezuma and USS Norfolk by convincing the senior French commander that those American warships were too powerful for his frigates and induced him to abandon the chase. Renamed Magicienne by the French, the schooner again came into American hands on June 28, when a broadside from USS Merrimack forced her to haul down her colors. > > Revenue cutters also assisted in capturing two others. The cutter USRC Pickering, commanded by Edward Preble, made two cruises to the West Indies and captured ten prizes, one of which carried 19 guns throwing 150 pounds of iron compared to Pickering’s 14 guns and total iron weight of only 56 pounds, and was manned by some 250 sailors, more than three times Pickering’s strength. -XT ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2007, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-at-a-political-crossroads/401230/30 "2007-04-23T21:35:22Z")
I know its a further hijack of the thread, but I found [this](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco-American_relations) when I was looking for a link for the Quasi-War between the US and France and thought BG and Bob might be intersted in reading some. You can see that the US and France have had a somewhat rocky time of it right from the beginning. There have been periods where we were very close (well I wouldn’t say ‘friends’ exactly 😛 ) and other times when we pissed each other off to no end. And this is just from the GOVERNMENTS perspective. Anyway, I’ll leave it at that…don’t want to further hijack. BG, you like starting threads…feel free to start one on the historical relationship between the US and France if you like. Might be interesting, especially since there are some French Dopers and could get their unique perspective. -XT ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2007, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-at-a-political-crossroads/401230/31 "2007-05-01T22:49:11Z")
This is interesting – Le Pen has urged his followers to [abstain from voting next Sunday.](http://www.canada.com/topics/news/world/story.html?id=d2d6992b-3301-4f05-959b-2acf2f9f5dcf&k=14101) The article doesn’t say why. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2007, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-at-a-political-crossroads/401230/32 "2007-05-01T22:56:33Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] This is interesting – Le Pen has urged his followers to [abstain from voting next Sunday.](http://www.canada.com/topics/news/world/story.html?id=d2d6992b-3301-4f05-959b-2acf2f9f5dcf&k=14101) The article doesn’t say why. 😕 [/QUOTE] Does France have a rule that a certain percentage of voters must particpate in an election for it to be valid? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2007, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-at-a-political-crossroads/401230/33 "2007-05-01T22:57:48Z")
Wasn’t I reading that the French had an 87% turnout for votes lately? If that’s so, we could learn one\* fuck\* of a lot about the responsibility of citizens in a democracy from the French, stinky cheese or no! ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2007, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-at-a-political-crossroads/401230/34 "2007-05-01T22:59:37Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] This is interesting – Le Pen has urged his followers to [abstain from voting next Sunday.](http://www.canada.com/topics/news/world/story.html?id=d2d6992b-3301-4f05-959b-2acf2f9f5dcf&k=14101) The article doesn’t say why. 😕 [/QUOTE] Because one of the candidates is a Socialist, and the other one is the son of an immigrant and a Jew, and Le Pen doesn’t like socialists, immigrants or Jews? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2007, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-at-a-political-crossroads/401230/35 "2007-05-01T23:01:46Z")
[QUOTE=Captain Amazing] Because one of the candidates is a Socialist, and the other one is the son of an immigrant and a Jew, and Le Pen doesn’t like socialists, immigrants or Jews? [/QUOTE] Then why doesn’t he just say that? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2007, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-at-a-political-crossroads/401230/36 "2007-05-01T23:12:13Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Then why doesn’t he just say that? [/QUOTE] Because, saying, “Don’t vote for Sarkozy because he’s a Jew” or “Don’t vote for him because his father’s Hungarian” would probably violate France’s hate speech/incitement laws, and Le Pen is generally smart enough not to do that. Just saying "“Don’t vote for Sarkozy”, he’s safe. ---
**Author:** ![kellner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c2a13f/32.png) [@kellner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kellner)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2007, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-at-a-political-crossroads/401230/37 "2007-05-01T23:16:44Z")
Perhaps he just fears that a mainstream right-wing incumbent who antagonizes minorities might cause more harm to Le Pen’s career as a fascist clown. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2007, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-at-a-political-crossroads/401230/38 "2007-05-01T23:19:42Z")
[QUOTE=kellner] Perhaps he just fears that a mainstream right-wing incumbent who antagonizes minorities might cause more harm to Le Pen’s career as a fascist clown. [/QUOTE] Le Pen is pretty solidly entrenched as France’s fascist clown. He’s safe in that regard. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2007, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-at-a-political-crossroads/401230/39 "2007-05-02T02:17:25Z")
Or maybe Sarkozy has been more actively courting Bayrou – who in any case, **does** have **more** voters, who are **likelier** to “swing” either left or right depending on what deal is cut – and not so much LePen, and he’s being snitty about being taken for granted. He says he’ll concentrate on the parliamentary elections, probably counting on nobody getting a real majority and himself enough seats to at least gunk up the works. ---
**Author:** ![kellner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c2a13f/32.png) [@kellner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kellner)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2007, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-at-a-political-crossroads/401230/40 "2007-05-02T02:59:13Z")
[QUOTE=Captain Amazing] Le Pen is pretty solidly entrenched as France’s fascist clown. He’s safe in that regard. [/QUOTE] Yes, but he got 10.44% this time, down from 16.86%. Justified or not, after the controversy that he caused Sarkozy appeals to part of the xenophobic demographic. Le Pen went from a surprising second place to an also-ran, now that there is someone else who might pressure clean the ghettoes. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-at-a-political-crossroads/401230.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-at-a-political-crossroads/401230.md?page=3)