# France considering banning the veil--how about you? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 16, 2010, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-considering-banning-the-veil-how-about-you/525163 "2010-01-16T03:06:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2010, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-considering-banning-the-veil-how-about-you/525163/21 "2010-01-16T16:28:21Z")
> [@PunditLisa](#): > > It stinks of all counts, but it’s not even a good safety measure. I mean, who’s easier to pick out in a crowd: The woman in the burqua or the woman in the jeans and t-shirt? Ok, but Face recognition software won;t work. And, there’s also the other Safety to consider- it’s hard to see, thus it’s more dangerous to walk or drive with traffic. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2010, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-considering-banning-the-veil-how-about-you/525163/22 "2010-01-16T16:39:10Z")
I can see laws requiring them to remove the face veil for identification, in court, to an officer, at the airport, when operating a motor vehicle, for driver’s photo. etc. I’d have no problem with that as it just makes good sense to me. However to ban veils universally seems foolish to me. Especially since it’s France. Crikey, if it was any less fashion conscious country I could sort of understand, but really - France. If this was the latest fashion off the Paris runways, being banned in another country France would be all up in arms over it. ---
**Author:** ![flyboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/4da419/32.png) [@flyboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flyboy)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2010, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-considering-banning-the-veil-how-about-you/525163/23 "2010-01-16T16:41:07Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Absolutely disgusting law. In the case of say, a full body burqa, I may not like the idea of it, but I don’t think anyone should be forbidden to make that choice for herself. > > Here in the U.S.? Unconstitutional. 100%. I’m not sure how it’s unconstitutional. Wouldn’t you first have to show that the burqua is a part of the religion (which it seems it’s not)? Then I think you’d have to show how banning it prohibits the free practice of Islam. > [@DianaG](#): > > YEAH!!! Let’s strike a blow for feminism by making laws restricting womens’ right to choose their own attire and religious observances!!! Well, first of all, I’m not advocating anything, much less “restricting womens’ right to choose their own attire.” I’m specifically looking at the burqua, which can potentially be shown as more problematic than, say, KKK garb, which AFAIK is legal to wear. If it can be shown that the burqua does indeed attract radical Muslims and is a detriment to public security, then I think there’s reason to consider such a law banning it. ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_Dunlop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/848f3c/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_Dunlop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_Dunlop)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2010, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-considering-banning-the-veil-how-about-you/525163/24 "2010-01-16T16:42:03Z")
> [@Duckster](#): > > Clarification … > > Is the wearing of a veil part of the religion? If not, how could there be an abridgement of the religion? According to [the Economist](http://http://www.economist.com/world/europe/displayStory.cfm?story_id=15270861) [QUOTE=The Economist] Yet today’s concerns about the niqab go far beyond secularism. “The burqa is not a religious sign,” Mr Sarkozy said last year, but rather a “sign of subservience, a sign of debasement” of women. For six months, a cross-party parliamentary inquiry has been holding hearings about the burqa.\*\* One by one, French Muslim figures have filed in to state that, as Dalil Boubakeur, rector of the Paris Mosque put it, “neither the burqa, nor the niqab, nor any all-over veil, are religious prescriptions of Islam.”\*\* Moreover, as Dounia Bouzar, a French Muslim anthropologist, pointed out to the commission, most of the women she sees wearing the niqab are young. Intelligence sources suggest that 90% of them are under 40. Two-thirds are French nationals, half of them second- or third-generation immigrants, and nearly a quarter are converts. In other words, this is not an influx of women from the Gulf, but a statement by young French Muslim women, whose own mothers did not cover their faces. Mr Boubakeur and other mainstream French Muslim leaders are clear about its origins: it is “an invasion of salafism”, an ultra-puritan branch of radical Islam. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2010, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-considering-banning-the-veil-how-about-you/525163/25 "2010-01-16T16:43:27Z")
I’m not asking you to read the whole Constitution or anything, because that would be hard, but if you could take a moment to check [dictionary.com](http://dictionary.com) for “attire”, then maybe we could continue this conversation. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2010, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-considering-banning-the-veil-how-about-you/525163/26 "2010-01-16T16:50:46Z")
Just for the record, I’m not a fan of the burqua. I’d love to see it eradicated through education. But we’re talking about a law that singles out the most vulnerable members of an unpopular religion, and that’s a bad law. ---
**Author:** ![Skylark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Skylark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skylark)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2010, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-considering-banning-the-veil-how-about-you/525163/27 "2010-01-16T22:31:11Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > I mean, France is a country that offers its citizens great rights-so if Islamic immigrants don’t like their laws, they can leave! What right do immigrantshave, to push their values on the rest of French society? > I would not want to live in a strongly islamic country-firts because I don’t like the culture, and second, because i believe in the separation of church and state. > If the immigrants don’t like the local culture, then why do they come? Nowhere in this are the immigrants pushing their shit on the rest of the French. > [@Fake\_Tales\_of\_San\_Francisco](#): > > What if it can be proved it isn’t really what they’d choose to wear? Many of the middle eastern girls that I went to high school with would have loved such clothing to be illegal. They dreaded growing up and having to wear the full coverings. I’ve known women who, surprisingly, felt the opposite way. Not always necessarily full out burqua, but the gist of it was there. So it seems we’ve reached a point where we realize the veil is a complicated issue with many different viewpoints where coinciding values can wind up on opposing positions. Gee. > [@flyboy](#): > > Well, first of all, I’m not advocating anything, much less “restricting womens’ right to choose their own attire.” I’m specifically looking at the burqua, which can potentially be shown as more problematic than, say, KKK garb, which AFAIK is legal to wear. If it can be shown that the burqua does indeed attract radical Muslims and is a detriment to public security, then I think there’s reason to consider such a law banning it. KKK garb isn’t out-and-out illegal. You can wear it, but many states and municipalities have laws against groups of people wearing masks in public. > [@DianaG](#): > > Just for the record, I’m not a fan of the burqtua. I’d love to see it eradicated through education. But we’re talking about a law that singles out the most vulnerable members of an unpopular religion, and that’s a bad law. This. I believe one of the reasons why the major post-9/11 terrorist attacks have occurred in Europe and not America (Madrid, London) is because “our” Muslims are much more integrated. This is the view is put forth in Marc Sageman’s [Leaderless Jihad](http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/feb/19/leaderless-jihad/) (link goes to _WaPo_ summary). I can imagine an argument that banning the veil would help integrate these communities better, but I don’t think it’s a very good one and seems disingenuous. Like the minaret ban in Switzerland, it seems motivated more out of xenophobia. I estimate this law would backfire because it specifically targets an already segregated minority group, and the campaign for this vote would stir anti-Muslim fervor, which would make that group of people feel even _more_ discriminated against and unwelcome in their own country. That is how young men (and women too) become radicalized. ---
**Author:** ![Kaio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c68b51/32.png) [@Kaio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaio)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2010, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-considering-banning-the-veil-how-about-you/525163/28 "2010-01-16T23:26:08Z")
> [@flyboy](#): > > I’m not sure how it’s unconstitutional. Wouldn’t you first have to show that the burqua is a part of the religion (which it seems it’s not)? Then I think you’d have to show how banning it prohibits the free practice of Islam. You seem to be presuming that specific religions are these giant monolithic things with everyone practicing it the exact same way. They are not. Some Catholics still attend a Latin High Mass on Christmas (and sometimes more often); most do not. If you banned Latin Masses, sure you could argue that they can still have Mass in English, and that Latin Mass isn’t _required_ by Catholic doctrine, but you’d still be interfering with how they practice their faith. Separation of church and state requires that the state keep their noses out of religion just as much as religion keeps it’s nose out of the state. > [@DianaG](#): > > Just for the record, I’m not a fan of the burqua. I’d love to see it eradicated through education. But we’re talking about a law that singles out the most vulnerable members of an unpopular religion, and that’s a bad law. I agree, education and, when needed, helping women to leave oppressive cultures _if they want to_ is the way to go. Dictating by law to anyone what _modesty_ “should” mean to anyone is presumptive and cruel. We can make accommodations for security and safety without banning them outright. ---
**Author:** ![NinetyWt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/cc9497/32.png) [@NinetyWt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinetyWt)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2010, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-considering-banning-the-veil-how-about-you/525163/29 "2010-01-16T23:30:58Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > it’s hard to see, thus it’s more dangerous to walk or drive with traffic. You’ve mentioned this twice. Do you happen to have a cite for that? ---
**Author:** ![Kaio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c68b51/32.png) [@Kaio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaio)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2010, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-considering-banning-the-veil-how-about-you/525163/30 "2010-01-16T23:33:22Z")
Missed the edit… The actual wording of the First Amendment: > [@](#): > > _Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, **or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;** _ or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. ---
**Author:** ![Silverstreak\_Wonder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Silverstreak\_Wonder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silverstreak_Wonder)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2010, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-considering-banning-the-veil-how-about-you/525163/31 "2010-01-16T23:44:51Z")
A good law, and no one is establishing any religion by this law. My city bans masks and that is legal, so no problem. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2010, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-considering-banning-the-veil-how-about-you/525163/32 "2010-01-17T00:00:16Z")
> [@PunditLisa](#): > > It stinks of all counts, but it’s not even a good safety measure. I mean, who’s easier to pick out in a crowd: The woman in the burqua or the woman in the jeans and t-shirt? A classmate of mine wears the headscarf and pretty much said the same thing you did about the burqa. “It’s supposed to be about modesty and if you’re wearing one of those in Texas you’re sticking out like a sore thumb.” ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2010, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-considering-banning-the-veil-how-about-you/525163/33 "2010-01-17T00:05:34Z")
Is there an established religion that mandates the wearing of masks? If not, then what’s the relevance? ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2010, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-considering-banning-the-veil-how-about-you/525163/34 "2010-01-17T00:11:19Z")
I don’t like it myself, but the notion that it will do anything at all against terrorism is ludicrous. But w/r/t feminism, just because some women wish to wear certain styles of clothing does not mean that it is not demeaning to women and rooted in a highly unequal tradition (which is not to say that Sharia law was originally anti_feminist_ per se because at the time it was actually a relative improvement in the status of women, it’s just that it hasn’t changed in over 1000 years.) However, to go further than passing a moral judgement on it and pass laws about dress is un- or counterproductive except in security related contexts such as licenses or identification and keeping with other existing laws (not all of which I agree with). ---
**Author:** ![Kaio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c68b51/32.png) [@Kaio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaio)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2010, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-considering-banning-the-veil-how-about-you/525163/35 "2010-01-17T00:42:10Z")
> [@Silverstreak\_Wonder](#): > > A good law, and no one is establishing any religion by this law. My city bans masks and that is legal, so no problem. You seem to have missed the bit in boldface. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2010, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-considering-banning-the-veil-how-about-you/525163/36 "2010-01-17T01:00:05Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > I don’t have any issues with requiring a _temporary_ removing of veils for immediate security reasons. For example I’m fully on board for requiring it for photo I.D.'s or if a law enforcement officer requests it for some real reason ( like checking a photo I.D. ). In Quebec at the time of the recent silliness over reasonable accommodations, there were a few manufactured controversies about women voting while wearing face coverings. When some of the people arguing about it finally got around to actually asking Muslim women about it, the response basically was, “Of the tiny number of Muslim women in Quebec who actually wear a face covering, virtually none have any problem with showing their faces for official reasons.” ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2010, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-considering-banning-the-veil-how-about-you/525163/37 "2010-01-17T01:21:59Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > I don’t have any issues with requiring a _temporary_ removing of veils for immediate security reasons. For example I’m fully on board for requiring it for photo I.D.'s or if a law enforcement officer requests it for some real reason ( like checking a photo I.D. ). > > But a permanent ban raises a number of issues, including: > > 1.) Abridgement of religious freedom. > > 2.) Personal humiliation for those raised with them (or have just chosen to wear them as adults) who would be embarrassed to be in public without one. > > 3.) Backfiring by limiting the movement of women who might now be subject to greater confinement by zealous male relatives. > > 4.) Alienating and thereby possibly helping to radicalize the affected population ( this happened to the Shah ). This pretty much where I come out on the issue, but I voted “ethical gray area.” ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2010, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-considering-banning-the-veil-how-about-you/525163/38 "2010-01-17T04:49:32Z")
I live outside Dearborn, Michigan. There are 60,000 middle easterners there. I see burkas every where. I just happen to think they are completely nude underneath them. Life is easy, shoes and a portable tent. ---
**Author:** ![Annie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/858c86/32.png) [@Annie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2010, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-considering-banning-the-veil-how-about-you/525163/39 "2010-01-17T05:22:20Z")
> [@Fake\_Tales\_of\_San\_Francisco](#): > > What if it can be proved it isn’t really what they’d choose to wear? Many of the middle eastern girls that I went to high school with would have loved such clothing to be illegal. They dreaded growing up and having to wear the full coverings. That’s what I was saying-don’t make it compulsory(ie: your high school friends), don’t forbid it. Legally. You want to dress like a nun, and aren’t doing so out of fear (of social ostracism, scorn, shamed, getting the shit slapped out of you,etc) and you don’t obstruct your field of vision so bad you end up driving on the sidewalk or otherwise become a menace, knock yourself out. When the menfolk start telling us women how to dress-for our own good, of course- we get pretty cranky. That said, not everyone’s going to walk through the doors of whatever we individually think of as enlightenment and liberation, even when someone’s kicked that door open for them. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2010, 9:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-considering-banning-the-veil-how-about-you/525163/40 "2010-01-17T09:20:18Z")
> [@NinetyWt](#): > > You’ve mentioned this twice. Do you happen to have a cite for that? Have you ever tried to drive with anything that obscures your vision? I can’t find a cite that sez driving with your windshield painted black is bad either. :rolleyes:Even the best of the burkas completely takes away all peripheral vision. I had to drive once with a gas mask, and that was pretty damn bad, and a face covering like that would be many times worse.Of course, in the Islamic nations where it’s required, they don’t allow women to drive, either. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-considering-banning-the-veil-how-about-you/525163.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-considering-banning-the-veil-how-about-you/525163.md?page=3)