# France Frags Freedom Frequently **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 16, 2004, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-frags-freedom-frequently/234588 "2004-03-16T04:45:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2004, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-frags-freedom-frequently/234588/1 "2004-03-16T04:45:52Z")
Fuckers. [Is there any dictatorship in the world that France won’t support for economic gain?](http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=worldNews&storyID=4565433) France is going to conduct naval exercises with China “coincidentally” right before Taiwan’s elections. > [@](#): > > The drills would be China’s first to be conducted on the high seas with a major Western power, Xinhua said. China held its first-ever joint naval exercises with Pakistan last October. > > **French President Jacques Chirac, keen to strengthen ties with China and win French business a firm footing in the rapidly growing market, sided with China in January in opposing Taiwan President Chen Shui-bian’s plan to hold a referendum on missile defense alongside presidential elections on March 20.** > > Taiwan responded by suspending high-level government exchanges with France. > > China, which considers Taiwan a wayward province that must be returned to the fold, has derided the referendum as a splittist plot **and some officials have warned of war.** China executes around 10,000 people every year. Why “around”? Their justice system is a no-justice system. Where is that European “morality” vis-a-vis the death penalty? French morality is measured in Euros, obviously. Where is their concern for “peace” when China is involved? The best proof of French moral turpitude is the Oil-For-Food scandal which is growing by leaps and bounds. The investigations are getting more intense and the connections to the anti-war goverments are crystallizing every day. Even American anti-war personalities might have been connected. I’ve met honest and decent French people. Why don’t they ever make it into the French government? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2004, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-frags-freedom-frequently/234588/2 "2004-03-16T04:50:10Z")
Because of course the United States would NEVER cooperate with communist China to gain access to the Chinese market, right? You’d certainly never go to any trouble to open up full trading relations with China, right? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2004, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-frags-freedom-frequently/234588/3 "2004-03-16T04:51:51Z")
Pot, this is kettle. Kettle, meet pot. The United States grants most-favored nation status to China. Of course, _we_ do it because democracy can only spread as far as McDonalds’ franchises do. Not because we’re greedy and want to exploit the virtually unlimited potential for financial gain in Chinese markets, or anything. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2004, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-frags-freedom-frequently/234588/4 "2004-03-16T06:01:22Z")
Jesus fucking Christ, **Beagle** , do you have any idea of the staggering amount of hypocrisy it requires for an _American_ to criticize _any other nation on the planet_ for cozying up to communist China? Please, for the love of the nation, shut the fuck up. ---
**Author:** ![Ferrous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Ferrous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferrous)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2004, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-frags-freedom-frequently/234588/5 "2004-03-16T06:03:56Z")
> [@Beagle](#): > > French morality is measured in Euros, obviously. Bastards. _Civilized_ people measure it in dollars. ---
**Author:** ![Bouncer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9d8465/32.png) [@Bouncer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bouncer)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2004, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-frags-freedom-frequently/234588/6 "2004-03-16T06:18:01Z")
Err… I think he was criticizing France. See, the title says France, and of course, he references France’s actions in both Iraq and in regards to China. As to pot/kettle/black, be careful about using that argument on a national scale, because there are no countries without dirt under their fingernails. I don’t really have an opinion on France’s actions, except that they are looking out for their own interest, and of course, trying to open more markets with China is a part of that. I doubt they’ll get that far, but then again, it should keep their own, and the Chineese’, intel agencies quite busy spying on each others businessmen. /shrug Regards, -Bouncer- ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2004, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-frags-freedom-frequently/234588/7 "2004-03-16T06:45:06Z")
Wow, that’s pretty fucking stupid. I think I can rebut this in [one picture.](http://www.faculty.sbc.edu/gdenn/rumsfeld_hussein.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2004, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-frags-freedom-frequently/234588/8 "2004-03-16T06:45:31Z")
There is a difference between free trade relations and actively supporting China’s desire to overthrow a small democracy and turn it back into a dictatorship, and participating in manoevers designed intimidate said small democracy. But essentially, the rest of you are right. This is realpolitik - France looking out for France’s interests. France has decided that its future lay in being a ‘balance’ to U.S. power. It is trying to move Europe into its court so that a large counterbalance to America can be developed. Moving closer to China makes sense from this standpoint, as does the opposition to the war in Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2004, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-frags-freedom-frequently/234588/9 "2004-03-16T06:48:24Z")
Are we really sure this is about money and not security? Maybe this is about a French Military who is scared that the U.S. will no longer come to it’s aid, and is now seeking a military relationship with China. I suspect this because I’ve heard rumors Greenpeace is building another _Rainbow Warrior_. The French Navy has to be terrified. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2004, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-frags-freedom-frequently/234588/10 "2004-03-16T06:50:54Z")
I’m going to throw my grandfather’s Croix de Guerre in the Gulf of Mexico if you people can’t see how this is an act of aggression. OK, so I’m an American. That’s it? Strike one. Any answers to my specific questions dealing with European hypocrisy on a tres grand scale? ---
**Author:** ![SnoopyFan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d07c76/32.png) [@SnoopyFan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnoopyFan)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2004, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-frags-freedom-frequently/234588/11 "2004-03-16T07:03:17Z")
**As to pot/kettle/black** /Omarosa mode ON You … you … RACIST, **Bouncer**! /OFF 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Urban\_Ranger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Urban\_Ranger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urban_Ranger)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2004, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-frags-freedom-frequently/234588/12 "2004-03-16T07:13:25Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > There is a difference between free trade relations and actively supporting China’s desire to overthrow a small democracy and turn it back into a dictatorship, and participating in manoevers designed intimidate said small democracy. Do you know what “black and gold” means in the politics in said small “democracy” and how those two things affect said small “democracy?” ---
**Author:** ![Eleusis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Eleusis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eleusis)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2004, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-frags-freedom-frequently/234588/13 "2004-03-16T07:13:39Z")
China has its economy tied to ours (the US) artificially low. We are letting the dollar slip while keeping trade open to try and break them of this. I don’t know what the hell I just said, but I firmly believe it. 😉 If we do it, then of course it must be okay for France, in any case. not. ---
**Author:** ![Avenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de0a6/32.png) [@Avenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avenger)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2004, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-frags-freedom-frequently/234588/14 "2004-03-16T08:30:36Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Wow, that’s pretty fucking stupid. I think I can rebut this in [one picture.](http://www.faculty.sbc.edu/gdenn/rumsfeld_hussein.jpg) Or how about this picture? [General Myers shakes hands with his Chinese counterpart General Liang Guanglie January 14, 2004](http://www1.chinadaily.com.cn/en/doc/2004-01/18/content_299976.htm) > [@](#): > > Military ties, severely curtailed three years ago after a Chinese fighter collided with an American spy plane over the South China Sea, are regarded as a vital part of U.S. diplomacy with the world’s most populous nation. > [@](#): > > Myers suggested joint search-and-rescue exercises, educational exchanges and additional visits by warships to ports in each country. > [@](#): > > A Chinese warship recently stopped in the U.S. territory of Guam, and a U.S. vessel is expected to visit a Chinese port soon. You really are a tit, Beagle. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2004, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-frags-freedom-frequently/234588/15 "2004-03-16T08:45:31Z")
> [@Urban Ranger](#): > > Do you know what “black and gold” means in the politics in said small “democracy” and how those two things affect said small “democracy?” Obviously you don’t. The phrase is “black gold” not “black and gold.” And the vote-buying it refers to is primarily the tactic of the KMT, which is the party China would prefer to have in power. Chen Shui-Bian is in power despite it, not because of it, and the KMT might well collapse completely if they lose this election, which would be the culmination of an amazing story of peaceful transformation to complete self-rule. So you can take your scare quotes off democracy, because that is _exactly_ what China is fighting against. \*\*The issue here has nothing to do with trade. \*\* Free trade is good for everyone, including the Chinese people looking for reform. But there is a big fucking difference between trading with the Chinese and actively aiding them in trying to intimidate voters before an election. ---
**Author:** ![Urban\_Ranger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Urban\_Ranger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urban_Ranger)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2004, 9:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-frags-freedom-frequently/234588/16 "2004-03-16T09:22:46Z")
> [@furt](#): > > Obviously you don’t. > > The phrase is “black gold” not “black and gold.” The phrase is “black gold” in Chinese, but it translates into “black and gold,” since “black” is not a noun in English. > [@furt](#): > > And the vote-buying it refers to is primarily the tactic of the KMT, which is the party China would prefer to have in power. Chen Shui-Bian is in power despite it, not because of it “Black and gold” does not simply mean vote-buying, and these certainly are not limited to the KMT. Chen Shui-Bian is in power not because of his stance against “black and gold,” but simply because Lee Tung-Fai put him there. So much for your knowledge of Taiwanese politics. > [@furt](#): > > and the KMT might well collapse completely if they lose this election, which would be the culmination of an amazing story of peaceful transformation to complete self-rule. Your logic doesn’t follow. > [@furt](#): > > So you can take your scare quotes off democracy, because that is _exactly_ what China is fighting against. The quotes stay on, because the way Chen Shui-Bian became president was decidedly undemocratic. > [@furt](#): > > But there is a big fucking difference between trading with the Chinese and actively aiding them in trying to intimidate voters before an election. So you are saying that Chen Shui-Bian’s speeches and ads are not scare tactics? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2004, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-frags-freedom-frequently/234588/17 "2004-03-16T14:36:10Z")
> [@Urban Ranger](#): > > “Black and gold” does not simply mean vote-buying, and these certainly are not limited to the KMT. Note the word “primarily.” No, the DPP isn’t spotless, but to suggest that ‘they all do it’ as if that settled it is disingenous to the point of falsehood. > [@](#): > > Chen Shui-Bian is in power not because of his stance against “black and gold,” Didn’t say he was. > [@](#): > > but simply because Lee Tung-Fai put him there. So much for your knowledge of Taiwanese politics. Ah, so the whole election was a farce. I suppose you have a cite for Lee Tung-Hui anointing Chen as his successor? A speech where he endorsed Chen? People saying they voted for Chen solely because of Lee? > [@](#): > > Your logic doesn’t follow. It absolutely does. You think Black Gold is an impediment to Taiwanese democracy; I agree. If the KMT breaks up, and its assets split, which is very possible if they lose this election it would be a great aid in taking the some of the corruption out of Taiwanese politics. It would also mean that the remaining parties on the political scene would be dominated by actual Taiwanese, rather than old men born on the mainland. Call me crazy, but I also think national referendums just might be democracy. > [@](#): > > The quotes stay on, because the way Chen Shui-Bian became president was decidedly undemocratic. I know this is the Pit and all, but have you got anything to back that up other than your assertion? Any NGOs that deny Chen won fairly? Any foreign governments saying so? > [@](#): > > So you are saying that Chen Shui-Bian’s speeches and ads are not scare tactics? Straw man. Rhetorical “scare tactics” are one thing; Chen engages in them like all politicians do in every country. But there is a big difference between that and lobbing missiles into the straits or mobilizing troops to threaten imminent military action as China does, and as France is aiding in. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2004, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-frags-freedom-frequently/234588/18 "2004-03-16T14:47:45Z")
> [@Beagle](#): > > Fuckers. Predictable monkey. I’ve been reading this forum for about four years, but I don’t have the memory capacity that some other SDMB members have. Just for fun, anyone recall Beagle’s attitudes on France before they told GWB to go fuck himself? I’ve been known to be wrong, but I’ll bet this monkey’s attitudes toward France (Besides typical American jokes about French Army Surplus Weapns that weren’t meant seriously) were based on GWB and Iraq. Just like the rest of his attitudes. -Joe, doesn’t hate America ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2004, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-frags-freedom-frequently/234588/19 "2004-03-16T14:51:59Z")
In order to clear this up, can everyone who believes this statement to be true please repeat it with me? **National interest should not outweigh moral principle, for _any_ country, _ever_**. ---
**Author:** ![KarmaComa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e36b37/32.png) [@KarmaComa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarmaComa)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2004, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-frags-freedom-frequently/234588/20 "2004-03-16T16:18:41Z")
National interest should not outweigh moral principle, for any country, ever. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-frags-freedom-frequently/234588.md?page=2)