# France is throwing a temper tantrum **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [September 17, 2021, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-is-throwing-a-temper-tantrum/950850 "2021-09-17T23:40:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Temporary\_Name](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8c91f0/32.png) [@Temporary\_Name](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Temporary_Name)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2021, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-is-throwing-a-temper-tantrum/950850/21 "2021-09-18T12:18:09Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > Napoleon might have something to say about that. 😀 > > A more balanced list: I will take a look at this article sometime today, but it seems to me that muskets were still in use at the time of the Napoleonic Wars. Rifled barrels and breach loading were just around the corner, but in defense of my previous point-- Muskets were still in use and possibly the most common issued weapon at that time. (I don’t really know for sure.) That being said, Dumas still had quite a bit to say about Napoleon but in a different serialized adventure novel, namely (my favorite) **The Count of Monte Cristo** The book was written in the middle 1800’s about a time when velvet pantaloons were not unheard of, so I believe my point holds. ---
**Author:** ![Temporary\_Name](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8c91f0/32.png) [@Temporary\_Name](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Temporary_Name)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2021, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-is-throwing-a-temper-tantrum/950850/22 "2021-09-18T12:31:41Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > Are you saying that Biden torpedoed this deal? It seems more like the French were just in over their heads. The Australians had to take the deal for American subs - - they found themselves in a real sink or swim situation! (rim shot!) ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2021, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-is-throwing-a-temper-tantrum/950850/23 "2021-09-18T12:50:15Z")
The Australians found themselves in a race to the bottom. ---
**Author:** ![Banksiaman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banksiaman/32/3334_2.png) [@Banksiaman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banksiaman)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2021, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-is-throwing-a-temper-tantrum/950850/24 "2021-09-18T13:03:36Z")
A couple of points - its not just a unit price per vessel, but the infrastructure for construction and maintaining the sub fleet. In terms of the Australian economy both the French and US programs represent a significant chunk of bucks that go towards boosting local investment in high-tech construction, which is at a bit of a low ebb. Even in the context of the French economy its a huge wad of future cash that has disappeared and, more importantly, a blow to the credibility of their armaments industry. Its important enough that if they were not chucking a hissy fit, then someone very senior should be fired. They cannot just let this play out and hope it works for their benefit. Serious reaction is absolutely necessary. The big implication for Australia is that it was toying with how to be America’s friend but not souring the vast trade relationship with China. Versions of a middle-path / everybody’s friend / feet in two oceans approach have been talked about ever since Deng Xiao Ping was in short pants. Buying French worked for that narrative, but this puts us firmly in the camp opposing Chinese economic and political expansion and completely part of the US side. The change of direction declares our position for the foreseeable future. I expect this will just escalate Chinese actions against Australia, including further trade embargoes and bans, which has been going on for a while, which have been more dickish rather than critical until now [unless you were directly affected]. ---
**Author:** ![flurb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/51bf81/32.png) [@flurb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flurb)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2021, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-is-throwing-a-temper-tantrum/950850/25 "2021-09-18T13:22:23Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Sorry, my bad - upon further check, it meant over 7 billion _Australian_ dollars apiece. Not US dollars. Based on my understanding from watching _Bluey_, I believe they’re called “dollarbucks”. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2021, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-is-throwing-a-temper-tantrum/950850/26 "2021-09-18T13:23:37Z")
There’s a limit to how much further China can “punish” Australia with regard to trade. In 2020, Australia’s imports from China exceeded its exports by about $7 billion. So the Chinese might well be shooting themselves in the foot by trying to markedly expand trade sanctions. Also, by reducing the sub deal to Australia “toying with how to be America’s friend”, you seem to think that China’s regional aggressiveness and bullying has no impact on Australia’s security. It’s a bit like characterizing Australia’s alliance with the U.S. against Japan in WWII as Australia merely sucking up to the Americans. ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2021, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-is-throwing-a-temper-tantrum/950850/27 "2021-09-18T14:00:03Z")
Note that we Brits have not forgotten the damage that French missiles did in the Falklands. France is a great place for a holiday and I have been many times, but we Rosbiffs understand that they are merely Frogs. We have been trading insults since the days of the ‘V’ sign at Azincourt. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2021, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-is-throwing-a-temper-tantrum/950850/28 "2021-09-18T14:42:43Z")
Nobody throws a hissy fit like the French. It’s awesome to watch. ---
**Author:** ![omenran](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omenran/32/3318_2.png) [@omenran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/omenran)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2021, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-is-throwing-a-temper-tantrum/950850/29 "2021-09-18T14:48:51Z")
> [@Temporary\_Name](#): > > I suppose it is all for the best. At the prices the French were asking, Australia would have found itself drowning in debt. IMO it was a sunk cost. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2021, 8:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-is-throwing-a-temper-tantrum/950850/30 "2021-09-19T08:41:30Z")
The deal for these submarines looked good on the surface, but on a deep dive cracks began to show. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Duality](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.duality/32/4098_2.png) [@Mr.Duality](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Duality)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2021, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-is-throwing-a-temper-tantrum/950850/31 "2021-09-19T10:51:06Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > Napoleon might have something to say about that. Napoleon was not really French. He was from Corsica. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2021, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-is-throwing-a-temper-tantrum/950850/32 "2021-09-19T11:14:06Z")
> [@Mr.Duality](#): > > Napoleon was not really French. He was from Corsica. Yes and no. Corsica was a French territory, and Napoleon was a French citizen, but Corsica still had a strong regional identity. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2021, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-is-throwing-a-temper-tantrum/950850/33 "2021-09-19T17:12:24Z")
> [@Mr.Duality](#): > > Napoleon was not really French. He was from Corsica. This isn’t terribly relevant to anything. There are no such thing as inherent racial ability to general and pre-modern era nationality didn’t count for much. For example at the [Battle of Almansa](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Almansa) the Franco-Spanish army was commanded by [James FitzJames, the bastard son of James II of England](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_FitzJames,_1st_Duke_of_Berwick). The allied British army was commanded by [Henri de Massue, a former general for France](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henri_de_Massue,_Earl_of_Galway). The most famous Austrian general is probably [Eugene of Savoy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Eugene_of_Savoy), born and raised in Paris. And I could dredge up a number more, like the various [Wild Geese](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_of_the_Wild_Geese). National identity was a far more flexible thing back in the day. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2021, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-is-throwing-a-temper-tantrum/950850/34 "2021-09-19T17:17:24Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > This isn’t terribly relevant to anything. It’s extremely relevant to the link in post #7 that has been discussed in this thread, so yes it’s relevant if you’ve been following this thread. > **[The Complete Military History of France](https://www.albinoblacksheep.com/text/france.html)** > > A documented list of the complete military history of France. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2021, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-is-throwing-a-temper-tantrum/950850/35 "2021-09-19T18:17:30Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > It’s extremely relevant to the link in post #7 that has been discussed in this thread, so yes it’s relevant if you’ve been following this thread. That link I already mentioned was more or less garbage in post #8? Yes, I noticed it 🙂. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2021, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-is-throwing-a-temper-tantrum/950850/36 "2021-09-19T18:23:39Z")
Then you already should know the context and relevance. And of course it’s garbage as a historical reference, it’s **humor**. 🙄 ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2021, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-is-throwing-a-temper-tantrum/950850/37 "2021-09-19T18:37:38Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > And of course it’s garbage as a historical reference, it’s **humor**. Kinda mildly insulting ethnic humor IMHO, not terribly different in kind from ‘dumb Polish’ jokes. But, eh - fine. I’ll drop the pedantic history schoolmarm thing, I know some people find it very annoying. Arguably it’s a bit of a hijack anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2021, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-is-throwing-a-temper-tantrum/950850/38 "2021-09-19T18:49:04Z")
> [@flurb](#): > > Based on my understanding from watching _Bluey_ , I believe they’re called “dollarbucks”. That’s offensive, and false. They’re called [dollary-doos](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81FGVh1dj0A). ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2021, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-is-throwing-a-temper-tantrum/950850/39 "2021-09-19T18:52:52Z")
And the Italians like to claim Napoleon as the last condottieri. Ignorant question: could the French have saved the sale, like a car salesman pleading “OK, what do I have to do here?” by refitting the subs with nuclear power plants; which they have plenty of experience with? ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2021, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-is-throwing-a-temper-tantrum/950850/40 "2021-09-19T19:09:51Z")
> [@Slithy\_Tove](#): > > Ignorant question: could the French have saved the sale, like a car salesman pleading “OK, what do I have to do here?” by refitting the subs with nuclear power plants; which they have plenty of experience with? The Australians _asked specifically_ for diesel subs. At the time, after Fukushima, the Australian government didn’t think nuclear subs would be acceptable politically. A selling point for the French subs was that they could be converted to nuclear later. The sticking point was how much of the construction would be done in Australia. Aussie companies were piling in and adding to cost, and the French claimed the Aussies didn’t have enough technical expertise in some areas. Anyway they were going to be delivered in 2035. Now the US subs will be constructed partly in the US, partly in the UK, and partly in Australia. That sounds like fun. They will have a delivery date of 2040… I would guess they will finally be delivered several years late, and at double the cost of the French subs. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-is-throwing-a-temper-tantrum/950850.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-is-throwing-a-temper-tantrum/950850.md?page=3)