# France is throwing a temper tantrum **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [September 17, 2021, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-is-throwing-a-temper-tantrum/950850 "2021-09-17T23:40:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2021, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-is-throwing-a-temper-tantrum/950850/61 "2021-09-22T00:08:02Z")
> [@gnoitall](#): > > Of course, 33 years like the G.E. S9G reactor in the _USS Virginia_ class may count as “not require refueling” for Australia’s use case. Presumably, the warranty has expired at that point. Dang planned obsolescence… ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2021, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-is-throwing-a-temper-tantrum/950850/62 "2021-09-22T00:56:38Z")
Not knowing a ton about submarines, what’s the expected hull life of the Virginia class? Are the same metal fatigue problems related to pressurization observed as in airplanes? ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2021, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-is-throwing-a-temper-tantrum/950850/63 "2021-09-22T04:08:55Z")
I am sure this dispute will continue for some time, and France will still be seeing red this October. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2021, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-is-throwing-a-temper-tantrum/950850/64 "2021-09-22T04:36:52Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > > [@Velocity](#): > > > > Eh…I _kind of_ can see why they’re disgruntled. To use a relationship analogy, a woman (Australia) has every right to break up with her bad boyfriend (France.) But it would be better for her to do so openly, rather than sneak around with another guy in secret for a few months (America) before breaking the news. > > Sure, that’s why France is upset with Australia. But America had no reason to inform France of our negotiations with Australia. Best I could come up with would be that they think America made the deal conditional on Australia not telling France. Honestly, though, I’m pretty sure this is just the way it is done in international diplomacy. It’s “a poker game where everybody cheats.” France just didn’t have enough spies be able to read Australia’s and America’s hands. ---
**Author:** ![Banksiaman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banksiaman/32/3334_2.png) [@Banksiaman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banksiaman)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2021, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-is-throwing-a-temper-tantrum/950850/65 "2021-09-22T04:52:59Z")
> [@Precambrianmollusc](#): > > I was 50/50 on saying Das Boot or saying ‘The Boot’ Or [a cunning allusion to Australia](https://simpsons.fandom.com/wiki/Australia) . ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2021, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-is-throwing-a-temper-tantrum/950850/66 "2021-09-22T06:21:06Z")
“You call that a submarine? **This** is a submarine!” “That’s not a submarine, that’s a spoon.” “All right, all right, you win. Heh. I see you’ve played subby-spoony before!” ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2021, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-is-throwing-a-temper-tantrum/950850/67 "2021-09-23T13:32:42Z")
> **[Aukus: Australia sent ‘extremely satisfied’ letter hours before axing French...](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/sep/23/aukus-australia-sent-extremely-satisfied-letter-hours-before-axing-french-contract)** > > French Naval Group to invoice Australia for abruptly cancelling submarine contract, says CEO > “On the same day that President Biden and Prime Minister Morrison made the announcement, the defence ministry and Naval Group received an official letter, a letter with an official stamp on it, from the Australian Navy.” > > He said this came from the defence ministry and a senior official – “the admiral who is overseeing the project” – telling France he had “taken a close look at the state of progress in the contract, in line with the contract, and was extremely satisfied that performance of the French submarine was excellent, which clearly means that we were to move to the next phase of the contract”. > > Grandjean added that the announcement that same evening of a US-Australia deal showed the lack of preparation about the decision, which he said was probably made within “a tiny circle” in Canberra. > > The Australian government confirmed it had sent the letter to Naval Group on Wednesday last week, but played down its significance. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2021, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-is-throwing-a-temper-tantrum/950850/68 "2021-09-23T13:59:28Z")
…I don’t understand this thread? Australia broke the contract. It’s Australia’s “temper tantrum.” The reaction from France seems proportionate. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2021, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-is-throwing-a-temper-tantrum/950850/69 "2021-09-23T14:09:47Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > > [@gnoitall](#): > > > > Of course, 33 years like the G.E. S9G reactor in the _USS Virginia_ class may count as “not require refueling” for Australia’s use case. > > Presumably, the warranty has expired at that point. Dang planned obsolescence… If the U.S. Navy follows the example of Apple, a few years down the line the subs they’re selling Australia will start losing speed, and batteries won’t hold a proper charge. Time to upgrade to NucSub 14S. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2021, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-is-throwing-a-temper-tantrum/950850/70 "2021-09-23T14:14:34Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Australia broke the contract. It’s Australia’s “temper tantrum.” The reaction from France seems proportionate. France’s reaction is appropriate to Australia. It’s not appropriate to America. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2021, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-is-throwing-a-temper-tantrum/950850/71 "2021-09-23T14:14:59Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > [Aukus: Australia sent ‘extremely satisfied’ letter hours before axing French contract | Aukus | The Guardian](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/sep/23/aukus-australia-sent-extremely-satisfied-letter-hours-before-axing-french-contract) > > > “On the same day that President Biden and Prime Minister Morrison made the announcement, the defence ministry and Naval Group received an official letter, a letter with an official stamp on it, from the Australian Navy.” > > > > He said this came from the defence ministry and a senior official – “the admiral who is overseeing the project” – telling France he had “taken a close look at the state of progress in the contract, in line with the contract, and was extremely satisfied that performance of the French submarine was excellent, which clearly means that we were to move to the next phase of the contract”. > > > > Grandjean added that the announcement that same evening of a US-Australia deal showed the lack of preparation about the decision, which he said was probably made within “a tiny circle” in Canberra. > > > > The Australian government confirmed it had sent the letter to Naval Group on Wednesday last week, but played down its significance. That’s definitely good evidence Australia probably could have done things better–I remain unclear on how it justifies “recalling an Ambassador” from the U.S. for the first time in 240 years. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2021, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-is-throwing-a-temper-tantrum/950850/72 "2021-09-23T14:20:30Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > France’s reaction is appropriate to Australia. It’s not appropriate to America. …:: shrugs :: Is that seriously what this thread is about? It’s not as if they blew up a boat in one of your harbours killing a man. **That’s** a real temper tantrum. What you are seeing is a mild diplomatic rebuke. I’m sure the United States is going to be just fine. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2021, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-is-throwing-a-temper-tantrum/950850/73 "2021-09-23T14:29:30Z")
> [@](#): > > He said this came from the defence ministry and a senior official – “the admiral who is overseeing the project” – telling France he had “taken a close look at the state of progress in the contract, in line with the contract, and was extremely satisfied that performance of the French submarine was excellent, which clearly means that we were to move to the next phase of the contract”. “The next phase of the contract”, of course, being unilateral temination. 🤦‍♂️ It’s quite possible that the Navy procurement staff had no idea their contract was being axed. Often, the folks working to execute the contract are the last to know. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2021, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-is-throwing-a-temper-tantrum/950850/74 "2021-09-23T14:30:54Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > What you are seeing is a mild diplomatic rebuke. Recalling the ambassador is not a mild rebuke. It is totally disproportionate. The only wrong America has done with respect to France in this affair is that we didn’t inform them of our negotiations. Which is not expected at all–France doesn’t tell America about France’s defense sales either. My guess is the French government is trying some sort of “rally around the flag” effect for upcoming elections. The French public doesn’t actually care about Australia that much, but America is something they do care about. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2021, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-is-throwing-a-temper-tantrum/950850/75 "2021-09-23T14:32:14Z")
> [@gnoitall](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > He said this came from the defence ministry and a senior official – “the admiral who is overseeing the project” – telling France he had “taken a close look at the state of progress in the contract, in line with the contract, and was extremely satisfied that performance of the French submarine was excellent, which clearly means that we were to move to the next phase of the contract”. > > “The next phase of the contract”, of course, being unilateral temination. 🤦‍♂️ > > It’s quite possible that the Navy procurement staff had no idea their contract was being axed. Often, the folks working to execute the contract are the last to know. It isn’t entirely unlikely the political leadership really didn’t want France to know about this until it was a _fait accompli_, there was probably an understanding this would cause a temporary diplomatic rift. But if France had known about the negotiations with the United States say, four months ago, they could have positioned themselves to more forcefully try and stop Australia from getting out of the deal–which could have put Australia in a worse position. The foreign policy consideration from Australia’s perspective is “we want the nuclear subs, France can’t offer what the U.S. is offering, it’s cleaner to hit France with the news we’re breaching the contract as we announce the new one.” You get all the pain out at once, and whatever France’s reaction is, it likely dies down over time. There probably isn’t a diplomatically clean way for Australia to back out of the contract, but this was possibly their best bad option because it compresses all the problems into one cycle. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2021, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-is-throwing-a-temper-tantrum/950850/76 "2021-09-23T14:32:52Z")
French politicians have made hay off of anti-Americanism since de Gaulle, it’s one reason why the French are a poor ally to the United States across a range of issues, and have a habit of posturing like children. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2021, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-is-throwing-a-temper-tantrum/950850/77 "2021-09-23T14:35:54Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > Recalling the ambassador is not a mild rebuke. It is totally disproportionate. The only wrong America has done with respect to France in this affair is that we didn’t inform them of our negotiations. Which is not expected at all–France doesn’t tell America about France’s defense sales either. > > My guess is the French government is trying some sort of “rally around the flag” effect for upcoming elections. The French public doesn’t actually care about Australia that much, but America is something they do care about. …nah, you are blowing it out of proportion. Australia **screwed** France over here. Badly. France are doing the only thing they **can** do. Did America get caught up in the middle of a cancelled contract dispute? Sure. But that happens all the time. And yes: they care about the cancellation of a billion dollar contract. Its a pretty big deal. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2021, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-is-throwing-a-temper-tantrum/950850/78 "2021-09-23T14:42:33Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Australia **screwed** France over here. Exactly. _Australia_ screwed France over. Not America. The redirection is obvious. France is throwing a tantrum like a three-year-old child (who also are very calculating about their tantrums). Recalling ambassadors does _not_ happen all the time. The proportionate response that France didn’t take would be to call America’s ambassador to the Élysée Palace and chew them out. Maybe our representative to NATO, too. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2021, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-is-throwing-a-temper-tantrum/950850/79 "2021-09-23T14:48:01Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Is that seriously what this thread is about? It’s not as if they blew up a boat in one of your harbours killing a man. **That’s** a real temper tantrum. Wow you must have been one hell of a two-year-old. 😆 ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2021, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-is-throwing-a-temper-tantrum/950850/80 "2021-09-23T14:49:38Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > The redirection is obvious. …no it isn’t. > [@](#): > > “The two leaders agreed that the situation would have benefitted from open consultations among allies on matters of strategic interest to France and our European partners. President Biden conveyed his ongoing commitment in that regard,” > **[France To Send Its Ambassador Back To The U.S. Following A Macron-Biden Call](https://www.npr.org/2021/09/22/1039735697/france-ambassador-submarine-macron-biden-call)** > > The phone call was the first between President Biden and President Emmanuel Macron since last week's fracas over a nuclear submarine deal. France had recalled its ambassador from Washington. Biden concedes they could have handled it better. France withdraws their ambassador. In a few weeks time they go back. It isn’t a temper tantrum. It’s just diplomacy playing out. It really isn’t a big deal. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-is-throwing-a-temper-tantrum/950850.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-is-throwing-a-temper-tantrum/950850.md?page=5)