Why does somebody have to tell them this, other than that you think so?
Do you want a cite for my opinion?
Definitely true. The issue began to apear ten years ago, roughly, following several cases of teens excluded from public schools because they insisted on wearing the hijab. The courts eventually ruled that only religious symbols or displays which could be construed as proselyting could be banned. The hijab in itself could only be banned for safety issues (gym or chemistry classes, for instance, girls operating machines, etc…) . The succeding governments cautiously avoided to propose any law on this topic, letting the courts sort out the problems on a case per pcase basis.
During some time, the issue came to a rest, though it would stil surface from time to time, with some girl being excluded from some public school (either because the school plainly didn’t want to let them wear the hijab, because they were refusing to attend classes (gym, in particular) were the hijab was forbidden.
There has been a strong come-back of this issue recently, with the current government deciding to create a commission specificaly devoted to it, and obviously having the intent of banning the hijab (the jewish kippa and crosses are only “collateral damage”, as Aldebaran mentionned). It will certainly be done, especialy since this ban is, from what I can tell, very popular in the poulation (including in a significant part of the muslim community).
As for the reasons why people and politicians want to ban the hijab, there are many of them :
-The first who cried “wolf” came from the left. For two main reasons :
*part of the french left is very attached to laicity, and of a very “hard” version of it, for historical reasons
*The hijab is perceived as a symbol of women oppression(especially when imposed by the family, though it’s not necessarily the case, at the contrary. Many girls wore it against the wishes of their parents)
-The extreme-right (Front National style) and people who share their ideas to some extent because they perceive the hijab as an evidence that France will soon be overwhelmed by islam (“these people want to push their values on us, don’t acccept the rules of our society”, etc…)
-Part of the muslim community, especially women, because they think it symbolize the coming back of ideas they spend plenty of time fighting against, either in France, either in their countries of origin
-Plenty of peole just “feel” wearing a hijab in school isn’t a thing which should be allowed.
-Now, the conservative right, now in power, IMHO, has two main motivations :
*Hinder the development of muslim fundamentalism. They think the hijab apearing in schools, wore by civil servants, etc…is an evidence of such development. They don’t want a too “traditionnal” or even “reactionnary” form of islam being perceived, as early as high school, as a normal/acceptable way of life.
*Plain populism : they know this ban would be well-perceived by most of the population
However, even amongst them, the ideas I already mentionned about “strict laicity”, “oppression of women”, etc… are quite wispread…
It doesn’t really matter since a religious disctintion doesn’t offer any protection under french law (speking in general principles).
According to the courts, it’s currently illegal. But of course, it will become legal as soon as the the law will have been passed (and I’m pretty certain it will pass. It could happen that it will be reviewed by the constitutionnal council, but I’m unconvinced that said council wil strike down the law as being unconstitutionnal)
DISCLAIMER I am not Muslim. I do not, nor have I ever, worn a veil.
DISCLAIMER #2 I use “The West” as a convenient label to represent the ‘other side’ of the debate from Islam. Nothing more is implied.
Capt:
There’s quite an extensive body of work on Muslim feminism, and the issue of the veil has been a hot topic since Fanon wrote in Algeria in the 1960s. It must be noted that the situation in France is kind of unique, because of their history with Algeria.
Discussions about the veil have a lot to do with the West’s relations to Muslim women (the idea of an enlightened Western actor ‘liberating’ them from their own ‘oppressive’ culture pervades much of the discourse); the importance of choice that the individual woman makes; and of course cultural ideals of modesty - I have heard more than one Muslim woman report that Western cultural pressures on women to wear hose and heels etc is as abhorrant to them as Islamic pressures to wear the veil is to us.
Leila Ahmed has wrote a great deal on the topic: Women and Gender in Islam is a fascinating work. Google her name for more refs, she is listed on many ‘Women and Islam’-type bibliographies
Historical Perspectives on Islamic Dress
This is interesting:
From the same page:
Of course not. But if you use a statement such as “somebody has to tell the …” as a supporting argument (which you did) I’m going to call you on it.
Look, we’re talking about girls wearing freaking head scarves, man. Have we become so intollerant? Who cares?
That’s definitely the general idea behind the french “integration model” as oposed to communautarism in anglo-saxon countries.
Honestly, I can’t imagine what prompted you to include such a ridiculous point. Are you saying France is headed down the path to becoming Saudi Arabia? What in heaven’s name does ANYONE’s desire to live in Saudi Arabia have to do with the debate a hand, a debate about a country which is decidely not muslim and certainly not ruled my islamic law.
Implausible. Irrelevant. and Inflammatory.
Indeed true. Though it has more to do with the history of secularism and anti-catholicism than with national pride. And also with the strongly rooted idea that a french citizen is a french citizen is a french citizen, not a muslim french citizen , or a black french citizen, or a breton-speaking french citizen.
Of course, amongst some people, these concepts are only veiling other, less savory, motivations…
That’s only one part of the issue. We also talk about women and girls being forced to wear veils and sometimes worse, forced to dress very conservatively and obey man. And not just their fathers or brothers, obey any man they meet on the street, or get insulted. There is a backslash of fundamentalism in the country. Read the link I posted.
Not whole France is ruled by islamic law. But the ghettos, “the banlieus” are. Read the link I posted.
For those who read either French or German: there was a documentary on this problem on the German/French television channel ARTE this week. This channel cannot really be considered populist, it normally touches social and intellectual topics with great care and sensibility. ARTE regularily broadcast low budget movies or movies considered as “intellectual” from various cultures and countries.
They have a website with some articles on the problem concerning the relationship between men and women in the French ghettos:
So are you advocating that one way to deal with the ghetto problems is for the French schools to take a hard line on the wearing of hijab by pupils?
I am not optimistic that it will solve the problem.
I was born in 1972 in an islamic country where I still live.
I was raised Muslim.
In addition: Once I was at the age of going to university, I made of Islam my studyfield. This covered - among others - the study of Al Qur’an as text and the study of Islamic history and - societies.
If you read my former posts on this topic you would already know that nothing about hidjab is an “invention” but a prescription in Al Qur’an that was explained since the beginning of the Quranic exegeses as such.
If you want further information, take a translation of Al Qur’an where Tafsier (exegeses) is included.
The fact that I say that no hair covering, let be complete covering from head to toe is prescribed as a command for women in Al Qur’an has nothing to do with the traditional interpretation of the text.
It is the result of my personal study on it, my conclusions about it (based on linguistic details) and not in the least beacause of the fact that I made of the study of the history of Al Qur’an as text my subject for my doctoral thesis as Arabist.
However, you shall find within the Muslim world, and especialy among other schoalrs, little (in fact one shoud read here “almost none”) approvement for this position I defend wherever I’m tempted to defend it .
You shall find also no support for it withing traditional Muslim societies.
Salaam. A
I waited and waited and tried to consider all the angles here. I’m an atheist, and not a fan of religion at all, and for a while I tried to let my distaste for religion win out (though not by much) over my questions about other parts of this issue. But I can’t. In fact, and this doesn’t happen a lot, I agree completely with Sam Stone: boo on France, this is stupid and despicable.
A lot of us are willing to complain when a school disciplines a kid for having blue hair or wearing the wrong shirt, or when a state tries to ban something unpopular just because it’s unpopular. Here, an entire country is trying to clamp down on free exercise of religion. I guess it’s not part of the French Constitution, but I think that’s still wrong.
If it happens to everyone, it is still discrimination? Maybe that’s the wrong word, but that’s what this is. Or more accurately, it’s a case of trying to kowtow to the bad guys. We’ve got that in America now about ‘if we do (X), the terrorists win!’ Usually it’s a joke, but this is the same kind of thing. France is caving to the bigots, letting them win. It’s a very bad precedent, and it will not solve the problem.
This is my take on it, in the context of what I understand is going on in France:
They’re trying to reconcile maintaining the French character of France with the republican ideals of liberty and individual freedom. I find this very interesting because the French claim to uphold the same ideals in their revolution that we do, but the US doesn’t have a single cultural and ethnic identity (and never has, despite what the likes of Pat Robertson claim.) Not so in France. Their Laicite secularist laws were designed to deal with a religion with which a vast majority of their native population identified, almost a century ago. They either need to take a second look at the spirit of their revolution and allow Muslim women to wear the headscarf, or admit they put what they perceive to be “French culture” ahead of what their republic is based on, and do away with the pretense of individual freedom altogether.
Salut
No hijab-wearing women have posted to this thread, so I thought I’d post my own thoughts, although I realize that it’s certainly somewhat different from what they might say. I’m an Orthodox Jewish woman. I’m unmarried, and thus don’t yet cover my hair, but I wear skirts that cover my knees (and usually longer ones, since if my knees have to remain covered, it’s easier and requires less care in how I sit if I wear very long skirts), sleeves that reach my elbows, and shirts that reach my collarbones. None of my clothing is very tight. While this doesn’t create quite as obvious a religious symbol as a hijab, if you know what you’re looking for, I stand out. (FWIW, everyone at my educational institution, which is large majority non-Jewish, could easily pull me out of a crowd as being Orthodox, so my clothes, at least here, certainly make a religious statement.)
My skin crawls at the idea that someone might try to force me to dress in a way that conforms to the majority around me, so that I might stand out less, let’s say by wearing jeans and tank tops. I think I look good in jeans and tank tops :); it’s not that I have a body-image issue that makes me want to cover up. My definition of what constitutes my being ‘dressed’ to be in public (or anywhere around men) is simply different, and anyone who legislated otherwise would be forcing me to walk around naked. My immediate reaction would be to leave the environment that required this, in this case dropping out of the public school system. (I’m someone in a PhD program in cell and molecular biology, and my schooling has been incredibly important to me, so this is not a statement that I make lightly.) If my family could afford such a thing, I’d go to a private school allowing me to wear the clothing that I’m comfortable with, probably a religious school (which is actually the sort of school I attended until college). If they couldn’t, I’d be stuck outside of the formal education system entirely. How can this be a good thing for French secularism, as either way it fosters increased ghettoization and decreased acculturating contact between female Muslims and non-Muslims? In the case of most French Muslim girls, I don’t think the private school option is available, meaning that many could be without an eduction entirely, which certainly implies much more repression than a two foot square piece of cloth.
And this is what I get for posting emotionally, I forget half of what I meant to say :o Obviously what’s taking place in the Muslim ghettos is horrible. Gang-raping fourteen-year-old girls because they talk to boys or choose not to wear the hijab is so incredibly depraved, despicable, and disgusting that I can’t even talk about it without using Pit-type language. I just can’t believe, though, that there’s no better solution to all women being forced to choose something than forcing them to choose the other option, as this means that the government is in essence doing the same thing as the gangs. It’s akin to solving the problem in some European countries where gangs beat up anyone who chooses to dress like a punk by requiring everyone to get mohawks.
to which John Mace responded:
Because of creeping growth of demands and expectations. If you allow the proselytizing parents of a young girl get their way by having her wear a hijab to a state paid school, then the next target would be other state paid institutions.
And here is a recent event in the news in France. The Muslims in France are now asking for public swimming pools to allocate one hour per day for only women bathers, and one hour for all men bathers, so that there is no mix of genders per rules of Islam.
Now that is a ridiculous demand from a country that allows nude bathers at the beaches of the French Riviera or the public swimming pools along the river Seine. The line has to be drawn against this nonsense.
Prohibiting hijab in public schools in France is the first logical step to draw the line against systematic design of infiltration, proselytizing, and creeping spread of God and religion by a bunch of zealots in an atheist country.