# France set to cut off Internet access for file sharing **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 3, 2008, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-set-to-cut-off-internet-access-for-file-sharing/470895 "2008-11-03T18:19:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2008, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-set-to-cut-off-internet-access-for-file-sharing/470895/21 "2008-11-04T16:44:01Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > All anyone has to do to avoid the penalty is simply not steal copyrighted material. > The pirates have no right to do what they are doing. Of course, but whether a crime is avoidable is not germane to questioning whether or not the punishment fits the crime. This, in turn, has no bearing on the punishment’s status, but blithely suggesting that since it’s easy to _not_ commit the crime the punishment doesn’t matter avoids the question. ---
**Author:** ![gazpacho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6f9a4e/32.png) [@gazpacho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gazpacho)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2008, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-set-to-cut-off-internet-access-for-file-sharing/470895/22 "2008-11-04T17:01:00Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > Yea I was imprecise in my response. Check the data in the wiki link on freenet in my follow up post. > > The way the network works is you have a share on your computer (or node) with (typically) 10 gigs of network data. When a file or webpage is shared it’s injected into the network over a encrypted connection. Pieces of the file are put on random nodes through out the network. Each node’s share is also encrypted in a way it’s impossible to know what a user is sharing without the keys. Only someone looking to get a file has the keys to the missing pieces. > > Thus you can download files without knowing who shared them, what you’re sharing, or them knowing what you’re personally downloading. > > It’s pretty clever. What difference does any of that make? They know the packets for this song came from you machine. Maybe the packet came originally from some other computer but that only matters in some very narrow legalistic sense. You are still running a program that is facilitating the sharing. I don’t believe that a country that has passed the law in the OP will buy that individuals are common carriers and do not need to keep track of what their machines are used for. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2008, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-set-to-cut-off-internet-access-for-file-sharing/470895/23 "2008-11-04T17:16:57Z")
> [@gazpacho](#): > > What difference does any of that make? They know the packets for this song came from you machine. Maybe the packet came originally from some other computer but that only matters in some very narrow legalistic sense. You are still running a program that is facilitating the sharing. I don’t believe that a country that has passed the law in the OP will buy that individuals are common carriers and do not need to keep track of what their machines are used for. Packets are relayed through other nodes as proxies. The downloader doesn’t know what the IP address of the uploader is. Since the packets are encrypted the proxies don’t know what data they’re handling. I suppose you could nail the proxies anyway but they most likely aren’t in your country. Coding the network to never have a proxy connect to another computer in the same country wouldn’t be that hard. " XYZ affair part 2! France demands elderly couple in Boston have there net suspended or else. 2 Congress men die of laughter" That brings about another problem with enforcement. Say I VPN into a Russian connection, or even just use a Russian proxy. What’s France gonna do? All my traffic looks Russian. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2008, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-set-to-cut-off-internet-access-for-file-sharing/470895/24 "2008-11-04T17:40:42Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > Of course, but whether a crime is avoidable is not germane to questioning whether or not the punishment fits the crime. This, in turn, has no bearing on the punishment’s status, but blithely suggesting that since it’s easy to _not_ commit the crime the punishment doesn’t matter avoids the question. Losing internet access is a slap on the wrist. In the U.S., illegal reproduction or distribution of copyrighted material can be a felony offense. That means prison time. As well it should. Pirating = theft. ---
**Author:** ![gazpacho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6f9a4e/32.png) [@gazpacho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gazpacho)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2008, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-set-to-cut-off-internet-access-for-file-sharing/470895/25 "2008-11-04T17:48:09Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > Packets are relayed through other nodes as proxies. The downloader doesn’t know what the IP address of the uploader is. Since the packets are encrypted the proxies don’t know what data they’re handling. So what? You or I are not common carriers. ---
**Author:** ![gazpacho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6f9a4e/32.png) [@gazpacho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gazpacho)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2008, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-set-to-cut-off-internet-access-for-file-sharing/470895/26 "2008-11-04T17:50:21Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Losing internet access is a slap on the wrist. In the U.S., illegal reproduction or distribution of copyrighted material can be a felony offense. That means prison time. As well it should. Pirating = theft. I want a cite saying this is a criminal offense in the US. The only cases I have heard about are civil cases. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2008, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-set-to-cut-off-internet-access-for-file-sharing/470895/27 "2008-11-04T17:55:57Z")
> [@gazpacho](#): > > I want a cite saying this is a criminal offense in the US. The only cases I have heard about are civil cases. [17 USC 506](http://www.usdoj.gov/criminal/cybercrime/17usc506.htm) Penalties here: [18 USC 2319](http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/2319.html) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2008, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-set-to-cut-off-internet-access-for-file-sharing/470895/28 "2008-11-04T18:01:26Z")
> [@gazpacho](#): > > So what? You or I are not common carriers. Care to respond to the rest of my post? The internet is bigger then France and you it. Explain to me how the French are going to regulate proxies outside of France. ---
**Author:** ![gazpacho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6f9a4e/32.png) [@gazpacho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gazpacho)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2008, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-set-to-cut-off-internet-access-for-file-sharing/470895/29 "2008-11-04T18:03:06Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > [17 USC 506](http://www.usdoj.gov/criminal/cybercrime/17usc506.htm) > > Penalties here: > > [18 USC 2319](http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/2319.html) Good cite. Are you aware of anybody doing the sort of file sharing we are talking about being prosecuted in criminal court? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2008, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-set-to-cut-off-internet-access-for-file-sharing/470895/30 "2008-11-04T18:05:34Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Losing internet access is a slap on the wrist. In the U.S., illegal reproduction or distribution of copyrighted material can be a felony offense. That means prison time. As well it should. Pirating = theft. Yea and by that logic trademark violation = theft. You ever ask someone to Xerox you a copy on a nonXerox™ brand copier? You’re a thief! You stole their intellectual property you criminal. Off with your head. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2008, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-set-to-cut-off-internet-access-for-file-sharing/470895/31 "2008-11-04T18:13:05Z")
> [@gazpacho](#): > > Good cite. Are you aware of anybody doing the sort of file sharing we are talking about being prosecuted in criminal court? [Conviction in Virginia](http://blog.wired.com/music/2008/05/guilty-verdict.html) This guy was running the server for a file sharing group. Suspect guys like him are much more likely to be prosecuted than people that just download a few files. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2008, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-set-to-cut-off-internet-access-for-file-sharing/470895/32 "2008-11-04T18:14:21Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > Yea and by that logic trademark violation = theft. You ever ask someone to Xerox you a copy on a nonXerox™ brand copier? You’re a thief! You stole their intellectual property you criminal. Off with your head. Nope. Go look up what trademark infringement actually means, and then report back with how wrong you were. ---
**Author:** ![gazpacho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6f9a4e/32.png) [@gazpacho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gazpacho)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2008, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-set-to-cut-off-internet-access-for-file-sharing/470895/33 "2008-11-04T18:21:42Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > Care to respond to the rest of my post? I know it makes you wrong but that’s okay. > > The internet is bigger then France and you it. Explain to me how the French are going to regulate proxies outside of France. Who cares. Only a tiny minority of people have the time and expertise to set up such a thing. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2008, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-set-to-cut-off-internet-access-for-file-sharing/470895/34 "2008-11-04T18:34:37Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Nope. Go look up what trademark infringement actually means, and then report back with how wrong you were. Ha! I love the how confident you are in your complete wrongness. > **[Trademark infringement](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trademark_infringement)** > > Trademark infringement is a violation of the exclusive rights attached to a trademark without the authorization of the trademark owner or any licensees (provided that such authorization was within the scope of the licence). Infringement may occur when one party, the "infringer", uses a trademark which is identical or confusingly similar to a trademark owned by another party, especially in relation to products or services which are identical or similar to the products or services which the registr... > [@](#): > > Trademark infringement is a violation of the exclusive rights attaching to a trademark without the authorization of the trademark owner or any licensees (provided that such authorization was within the scope of the license). Infringement may occur when one party, the “infringer”, uses a trademark which is identical or confusingly similar to a trademark owned by another party, in relation to products or services which are identical or similar to the products or services which the registration covers. An owner of a trademark may commence legal proceedings against a party which infringes its registration. Tell me an office person hasn’t asked for a company document to be Xeroxed on a nonxerox printer. That is is an illegal use of Xerox’s intellectual property. How many years of prison with murders should those criminals surve? Even if you limit it to commercial activities they’re still guilty. When come back bring pie, but not pie from a bake off unless it’s an official Pillsbury Bake Off™. Don’t want to make a criminal out of you. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2008, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-set-to-cut-off-internet-access-for-file-sharing/470895/35 "2008-11-04T18:38:40Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > Ha! > > I love the how confident you are in your complete wrongness. > > [Trademark infringement - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trademark_infringement) > > Tell me an office person hasn’t asked for a company document to be Xeroxed on a nonxerox printer. That is is an illegal use of Xerox’s intellectual property. How many years of prison with murders should those criminals surve? Even if you limit it to commercial activities they’re still guilty. > > When come back bring pie, but not pie from a bake off unless it’s an official Pillsbury Bake Off™. Don’t want to make a criminal out of you. Strike two. Calling a copy machine a Xerox machine in my own damn office does not constitute trademark infringement. Marketing an offbrand copy machine as a “Xeroxer” would. Try to have a clue what you’re talking about in the future. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2008, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-set-to-cut-off-internet-access-for-file-sharing/470895/36 "2008-11-04T18:39:34Z")
> [@gazpacho](#): > > Who cares. Only a tiny minority of people have the time and expertise to set up such a thing. You don’t need skills to set up a proxy. Any idiot can learn to do it. Pirates generally are more tech savy anyway. Even if someone can’t figure out the difficult task of filling in the IP and Port fields for a proxy config; just install a program like Freeweb. You can bet they’ll add counter measures if France starts targeting nodes. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2008, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-set-to-cut-off-internet-access-for-file-sharing/470895/37 "2008-11-04T18:41:43Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Strike two. Calling a copy machine a Xerox machine in my own damn office does not constitute trademark infringement. Marketing a copy machine as a “Xeroxer” would. Try to have a clue what you’re talking about in the future. “Your own damn” office is diluting the Xerox trademark and robbing them of the value of it so you’re committing theft by your own logic. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2008, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-set-to-cut-off-internet-access-for-file-sharing/470895/38 "2008-11-04T18:44:23Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > “Your own damn” office is diluting the Xerox trademark and robbing them of the value of it so you’re committing theft by your own logic. Strike Three. Provide a cite that says a non-commerical error in calling a copy machine a Xerox machine constitutes a trademark violation. I’ll accept caselaw from any U.S. court. Wikipedia, especially a wikipedia article you have clearly misunderstood, is not acceptable. ---
**Author:** ![Ponster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ponster/32/17081_2.png) [@Ponster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ponster)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2008, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-set-to-cut-off-internet-access-for-file-sharing/470895/39 "2008-11-04T18:46:55Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > That brings about another problem with enforcement. Say I VPN into a Russian connection, or even just use a Russian proxy. What’s France gonna do? All my traffic looks Russian. But isn’t my download speed at the mercy of the foreign proxy ? ---
**Author:** ![gazpacho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6f9a4e/32.png) [@gazpacho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gazpacho)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2008, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-set-to-cut-off-internet-access-for-file-sharing/470895/40 "2008-11-04T18:59:29Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > You don’t need skills to set up a proxy. Any idiot can learn to do it. Pirates generally are more tech savy anyway. > > Even if someone can’t figure out the difficult task of filling in the IP and Port fields for a proxy config; just install a program like Freeweb. You can bet they’ll add counter measures if France starts targeting nodes. Ip address, port fields? You have left 95% of the people behind. This is way to complex for most people. Sure lots of people could learn it if they put their minds to it but most wont. Freeweb suffers from from the fact that the record companies will look for music and Freeweb and start downloading it. If they get packets from people in France they will try and make the case that those people in France are sharing the files. I am skeptical that the courts will side with the argument the that particular node on free net is innocently passing the packet along and not sharing the file. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-set-to-cut-off-internet-access-for-file-sharing/470895.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-set-to-cut-off-internet-access-for-file-sharing/470895.md?page=3)