# France to ban religious clothing items **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 18, 2003, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-to-ban-religious-clothing-items/219732 "2003-12-18T12:25:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-to-ban-religious-clothing-items/219732/61 "2003-12-19T19:51:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Floater \* > \*\*I find it interesting that nobody, neither in this nor in the other thread, has mentioned that the proposal also includes introducing Yom Kippur and a muslim holiday, the name of which escapes me, as national holidays. \*\* The commission proposed such a thing, indeed (I suppose the muslim holiday was the Aîd) But the government already voiced its opposition to such a change, especially since they just decided to supress an already existing holiday for totally different reasons (a very poular decision, as you might guess). ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-to-ban-religious-clothing-items/219732/62 "2003-12-19T20:04:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Evil Captor \* > \*\*Does anybody know if the religious clothing ban has any halfway sensible purpose, that is, other than giving the Muslims a poke in the eye? \*\* -Settling by a law a long-lasting issue, which has been around for many years, during which it was up to the schools to decide wether or not the hijab (generally not simply a headscarf) should be allowed or not and up to the court to decide wether or not the school had the right to ban it. -Protecting young schoolgirls from what is perceived as an attack against women’s rights and as a sign of subordination to men. -Forbiding a too obvious display of religious faith in public school, something which has, for a long time, been considered an important principle -Hindering the development of fundamentalist Islam by making obvious that things encouraged by the more conservative brands of Islam won’t be considered as fully acceptable. -Catering for a lot of electors who just don’t like seing schoolgirls wearing a hijab, whatever their reasons might be. ---
**Author:** ![cowgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@cowgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cowgirl)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-to-ban-religious-clothing-items/219732/63 "2003-12-19T20:04:59Z")
So > [@](#): > > Secular, fair and equal primary schools means, everyone has to dress and act like me, and people like me? ---
**Author:** ![county](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce7236/32.png) [@county](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/county)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-to-ban-religious-clothing-items/219732/64 "2003-12-19T20:11:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shodan \* > \*\*Wearing a head scarf interferes with the education process? In what way? > > Regards, > Shodan \*\* The same way a short skirt or a sleeveless shirt for men or necklace with a large gold $ emblem or any other distraction would. (I advocate uniforms) That’s an opinion. In France it may become some sort of law. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------“Really? I see children whose learning should be encouraged while they themselves should not be discriminated against.” Really; I doubt you even understand discrimination. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-to-ban-religious-clothing-items/219732/65 "2003-12-19T20:15:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fang \* > \*\* > I don’t even see what they are trying to do. I can’t see this accomplishing anything positive, only possibly driving young Muslims out of public schools and into Muslim schools. \*\* Except that there aren’t any muslim school in France. Sorry… actually, there’s exactly one. It opened this year, and if I remember correctly it enroled less than 10 teen-agers. Girls excluded from school for wearing scarves either joined other public schools, either were taught by mail or used similar schemes. > [@](#): > > The only other thing I can think of is that they are trying to end students being easily identifiable as members of a particular religion, which sounds to me like coloring all the black people’s skin white so there won’t be any more racism. Actually, that’s roughly how “integration” is traditionnaly perceived in France. Everybody should be the same. Just a french citizen. As I wrote in another thread, no muslim french, no black french, no breton-speaking french . Everything looking more or less “communautarist/multiculturalist” is viewed with suspicion. > [@](#): > > The problem the French have had in dealing with their Muslim population is that they never assimilated them. Muslims have always been treated separately, both in the segregationist sense and the multiculturalist sense. This has led to the growth of radicalism in France’s Muslim population. Indeed, at least for the “segregationist” part. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-to-ban-religious-clothing-items/219732/66 "2003-12-19T20:22:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Akatsukami \* > \*\* > > ## The attitude is “Ok, you’re Muslim, but surely you don’t follow all those silly rules about not drinking wine and covering your hair.” > > More on the order of the liberal-radical wing having fought viciously (and not without cause) against the monarchist-Catholic wing in the last years of the 19th and early years of the 20th century. Dreyfus Affair, Associations Law, and so forth? > More on the order of the liberal-radical wing having fought viciously (and not without cause) against the monarchist-Catholic wing in the last years of the 19th and early years of the 20th century. Dreyfus Affair, Associations Law, and so forth? \*\* Both are true, actually. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-to-ban-religious-clothing-items/219732/67 "2003-12-19T20:26:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by NurseCarmen \* > \*\*It just seems wrong to me. I guess burqas could be a problem that could eventully cause some sort of government action, but that’s just due to the potential for abuse. But a head scarf? A yarmulke? That’s pretty fucked up. \*\* Actualy, the issue is generally the hijab. AFAIK, there has been no case involving a burqas or something similar, and a lot of schools have settled the issue by asking the girls to replace the hijab by a headscarf (but some schools didn’t accept even the headscarf, and some girls refused to remove the hijab) The yarmukale is “collateral damage” of the hijab issue, since they couldn’t single out the muslims. Nobody cared about it, previously. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-to-ban-religious-clothing-items/219732/68 "2003-12-19T20:32:02Z")
* * * ## Originally posted by Captain Amazing You consider the French “notoriously anti-assimilation”? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Akatsukami \* > \*\* > > Given the notorious ghettoization of Muslim immigrants, yes, I’d say so. > > \*\* I would say that france is notoriously pro-assimilation on the principle (laws, intelectual’s positions, politician’s speech) and this view is quite ingrained, but also notoriously excluding muslims in practice (jobs, housing, etc…). It probably adds up in many people’s mind as “everybody should be like me”. ---
**Author:** ![sturmhauke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e47c2d/32.png) [@sturmhauke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sturmhauke)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-to-ban-religious-clothing-items/219732/69 "2003-12-19T20:38:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by New Iskander \* > **France has excellent public school system. French are taking great pride in it. They simply don’t want to see their schools falling prey to so-called “individual freedoms” as expressed by means of gangster and/or tribal clothing and mentality, that keep wrecking US schools.** A lot of Christian kids wear T-shirt with Jesus or Biblical quotes on them, are they wrecking US schools? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-to-ban-religious-clothing-items/219732/70 "2003-12-19T20:42:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by county \* > \*\*The same way a short skirt or a sleeveless shirt for men or necklace with a large gold $ emblem or any other distraction would. (I advocate uniforms) > > That’s an opinion. In France it may become some sort of law. > \*\* Now all they need is a law forcing blacks to use hair straightener, so as not to distract by being different. All that nappiness, you know. And skin whitener, too - no point in allowing anyone but a Michael Jackson clone to distract the students. And we all know the end of real education is to be sure everyone fits the same cookie cutter. You are not advocating uniforms, but uniformity. There’s a difference. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-to-ban-religious-clothing-items/219732/71 "2003-12-19T20:46:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by John Mace \* > \*\*I agree with those who say that this will simply drive the more fundamentlist types even further into isolation. Not to mention the fact that I find this **abhorant** to the most basic concept of personal freedom. > \*\* Problem is : most french people won’t find it abhorant (even those who oppose it won’t be as vocal) because the concept that people shouldn’t advertize for their religion in schools is generally accepted. IOW, religion should be locked away from public schools. The mindset in France and in the US is quite different on this issue. And teachers in particular tend to feel strongly about strict laicity. Actually, more generally, french people rarely advertize their religious beliefs anywhere (witnessing is essentialy non existent, barring the odd Jehovah witness or Mormon), and even rarely discuss them. ---
**Author:** ![county](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce7236/32.png) [@county](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/county)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-to-ban-religious-clothing-items/219732/72 "2003-12-19T20:49:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shodan \* > \*\*Now all they need is a law forcing blacks to use hair straightener, so as not to distract by being different. All that nappiness, you know. And skin whitener, too - no point in allowing anyone but a Michael Jackson clone to distract the students. > > And we all know the end of real education is to be sure everyone fits the same cookie cutter. > > You are not advocating uniforms, but uniformity. There’s a difference. > > Regards, > Shodan \*\* No, I am not advocating uniformity and I am not the one who brought up “blacks” in this discussion. Throwing that kind of shit into the discussion as a “red herring” will not work with me. I am advocating a system that focuses on teaching fundamental skills wihtout a lot of distractions - this debate is about how much distraction will be permitted, i.e. if a student wants to wear a 3 foot high pointed hat to school will you approve that? If his religion requires it, will you speak for the child? ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-to-ban-religious-clothing-items/219732/73 "2003-12-19T20:54:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by county \* > \*\*Parents in the U.S. who disagree with school policies are free to provide home schooling, provided it meets basic minimum standards, I presume that France has a similar arrangement or has no requirement that children attend school. Children must attend school up to 16, but homeschooling is allowed (though very uncommon). Many of the girls who were excluded from ppublic schools as a result of the veil issue used mail/tele schooling which is usually provided for ill children or people past school age by a specialized public service. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-to-ban-religious-clothing-items/219732/74 "2003-12-19T21:03:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by John Mace \* > \*\* > But the real issue is whether or not the state has the right to prevent the free exercise of religion without an overwhleming case being made that the exercise thereof is dangerous to society as a whole. That’s it. \*\* I’m not sure whether the word “right” is the correct one here. Only the french constitutionnal council will be able to tell whether or not what you call “free exercise of religion” is actually an exercice of religion, and whether or not said exercise can be banned in public school. But actually, the issue won’t be presented in such a way here. The question will probably be along the line “Can wearing a hijab/kippa be considered as proselyting and for this reason be banned in school?” Until now, since there was no existing law on this topic, the courts had ruled that the hijab/headscarf, etc…could only prohibited if it presented a danger from a safety point of view. For instance during gym classes, or when the girls were operating machines, etc… ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-to-ban-religious-clothing-items/219732/75 "2003-12-19T21:09:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sturmhauke \* > \*\*A lot of Christian kids wear T-shirt with Jesus or Biblical quotes on them, are they wrecking US schools? \*\* That would most probably be frowned upon in french publkic schools… ---
**Author:** ![county](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce7236/32.png) [@county](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/county)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-to-ban-religious-clothing-items/219732/76 "2003-12-19T21:16:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by clairobscur \* > \*\*That would most probably be frowned upon in french publkic schools… \*\* Then they would have a fit if they saw the kids praying - schools are for basic skills, pray at home or silently to yourself. (After all, the conversation is with you and God) ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-to-ban-religious-clothing-items/219732/77 "2003-12-19T22:02:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by county \* > **No, I am not advocating uniformity and I am not the one who brought up “blacks” in this discussion. Throwing that kind of shit into the discussion as a “red herring” will not work with me.** You are arguing uniformity, and it has already been demonstrated that your arguments are shit. You are alleging that a head scarf is as distracting as a short skirt or a three foot high pointed hat. Which is an assertion too stupid to debate. Which leaves us with the conclusion that you believe even the slightest deviation from the enforced hive identity is a danger to the educational process. You might as well shave their heads and issue them all orange jumpsuits. These students want to wear a head scarf, as part of their religion. For them to do so is harmless. Unless you would like to demonstrate how it is impossible to teach in the presence of unapproved pieces of cloth, at least for French. The major drawback of the scarves would seem to be that it offends atheist fascists like **ianzin** , and demonstrates resistance to group assimilation to people like you. Boo hoo. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![county](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce7236/32.png) [@county](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/county)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-to-ban-religious-clothing-items/219732/78 "2003-12-19T23:52:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shodan \* > \*\*You are arguing uniformity, and it has already been demonstrated that your arguments are shit. > > You are alleging that a head scarf is as distracting as a short skirt or a three foot high pointed hat. Which is an assertion too stupid to debate. > > Which leaves us with the conclusion that you believe even the slightest deviation from the enforced hive identity is a danger to the educational process. You might as well shave their heads and issue them all orange jumpsuits. > > These students want to wear a head scarf, as part of their religion. For them to do so is harmless. Unless you would like to demonstrate how it is impossible to teach in the presence of unapproved pieces of cloth, at least for French. > > The major drawback of the scarves would seem to be that it offends atheist fascists like **ianzin** , and demonstrates resistance to group assimilation to people like you. > > Boo hoo. > > Regards, > Shodan \*\* No, I am not arguing uniformity; I am arguing for minimizing distractions at school. What a student wears before and after school is their own (or their parents business). When they come into the government provided school to learn the life skills being offerred, they should avoid creating learning distractions. If you want to debate a distraction definition, well that’s what I am doing. Now that is what I am arguing, what you are arguing is calling names such as “stupid” “arguments are shit” “atheist” etc. When the argument reaches that level I am compelled to offer you the opportunity; if you want to, to Bite Me. Regards Mr. Boo Hoo ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-to-ban-religious-clothing-items/219732/79 "2003-12-20T00:10:57Z")
It seeems to me that someone allows themselves to be distracted by a headscarf is the one who is causing the problem, not the wearer. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-to-ban-religious-clothing-items/219732/80 "2003-12-20T00:33:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by county \* > No, I am not arguing uniformity; I am arguing for minimizing distractions at school. What a student wears before and after school is their own (or their parents business). When they come into the government provided school to learn the life skills being offerred, they should avoid creating learning distractions. If you want to debate a distraction definition, well that’s what I am doing. No, as **Shodan** aptly pointed out, you’re arguing for uniformity. That you don’t know you are agruing for uniformity simply shows that you don’t understand your own arguments. Having followed your posts for some time, this is hardly surprising. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-to-ban-religious-clothing-items/219732.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-to-ban-religious-clothing-items/219732.md?page=5)