# France to ban religious clothing items **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 18, 2003, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-to-ban-religious-clothing-items/219732 "2003-12-18T12:25:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![county](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce7236/32.png) [@county](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/county)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-to-ban-religious-clothing-items/219732/81 "2003-12-20T02:18:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Miller \* > \*\*No, as **Shodan** aptly pointed out, you’re arguing for uniformity. That you don’t know you are agruing for uniformity simply shows that you don’t understand your own arguments. > > Having followed your posts for some time, this is hardly surprising. \*\* And you sir, also resort to personal attacks, which is not surprising from someone who apparently does not know the definition of “uniformity.” (BM) ---
**Author:** ![Stoneburg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Stoneburg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoneburg)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-to-ban-religious-clothing-items/219732/82 "2003-12-20T05:52:52Z")
Actually what is most surprising is how many just don’t have a clue about why this law is about to be passed. They just assume it is an unprovoked attack on a religious group. The law tries to address problems. The problem of fundamentalism growing in France, the problem with segregation and the problem with fundamentalists **opression of women**. I don’t know if it will have any effect, or if it will be positive, but at least they’re doing sometyhing. Here we have a group of muslim women trying to get the headscarves banned, since they believe it is a tool of opression. I for one support them. Sorry for trying to make a rational point in the pit, feel free to disragard the above post and keep raving. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-to-ban-religious-clothing-items/219732/83 "2003-12-20T06:16:35Z")
> [@](#): > > Now I see that practically everybody here is a multi-culti barbarian, one way or another, with few honorable exceptions. “Freedom of Religion”, forsooth! Guess what: even in a SINGLE culture, it’s possible that not everyone has to dress or think alike. I’m not a multiculturalist. I’m anti culture. I want as free an exchange of ideas and expression as possible with no particular culture at all other than the civil laws that restrain ACTIONS, not thoughts or private practices and expression. I understand that France may not be down with that. But me and Gadhafi have a message for you: [![](http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/.element/img/2.0/misc/expired/t1land.image.jpg) ](http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/.element/img/2.0/misc/expired/t1land.image.jpg) “Yeah, you know what this means, bitch?” ---
**Author:** ![county](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce7236/32.png) [@county](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/county)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-to-ban-religious-clothing-items/219732/84 "2003-12-20T11:47:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Apos \* > \*\*Guess what: even in a SINGLE culture, it’s possible that not everyone has to dress or think alike. > > I’m not a multiculturalist. I’m anti culture. I want as free an exchange of ideas and expression as possible with no particular culture at all other than the civil laws that restrain ACTIONS, not thoughts or private practices and expression. > > I understand that France may not be down with that. > > But me and Gadhafi have a message for you: > [http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2003/images/12/19/top.main.gadhafi.ap.jpg](http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2003/images/12/19/top.main.gadhafi.ap.jpg) > “Yeah, you know what this means, bitch?” \*\* Well, these are children, in school to learn fundamental life-skills and if they don’t learn how to read, well they ain’t gonna be exchanging very many “ideas” because they will be too ignorant. They want to express themselves, that is what college and the rest of their lives is about. And if the parents don’t like it, well, there are options. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-to-ban-religious-clothing-items/219732/85 "2003-12-20T12:37:38Z")
So basically, school is a place for suppressing individuality at the whim of what the government determines to be normal? What a charming concept. **Stoneburg** , I’m somewhat bemused that you believe the pursuit of freedom is best served by banning something. You seize on the fact that there exist muslim women who do not want to wear headscarves, and reason that therefore they must be banned. You do not stop to consider that true freedom would be the freedom to wear one _if you so desire_. As for suppressing radicalism, born of disenfranchisement and a feeling of being an outsider, I am frankly amazed that you believe banning religious symbols will not exacerbate the problem. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-to-ban-religious-clothing-items/219732/86 "2003-12-20T14:49:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Stoneburg \* > \*\*Actually what is most surprising is how many just don’t have a clue about why this law is about to be passed. They just assume it is an unprovoked attack on a religious group. > > The law tries to address problems. The problem of fundamentalism growing in France, the problem with segregation and the problem with fundamentalists **opression of women**. > > I don’t know if it will have any effect, or if it will be positive, but at least they’re doing sometyhing. Here we have a group of muslim women trying to get the headscarves banned, since they believe it is a tool of opression. I for one support them.\*\* Thanks for answering the question I posted awhile back – the whole business of banning headscarves struck me as just a bad idea – all it would serve to do is infuriate Muslims, and let’s face it, they’re a very crabby crew to start with. While I’m sure there are a lot of people around in France who’d like to infuriate Muslims, it’s rare that you see a law passed to such effect. The law being an attempt to end Muslim oppression of women makes much more sense. The fact that it infuriates traditional Muslims is just a wonderful happenstance for many, I’m sure. ---
**Author:** ![Stoneburg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Stoneburg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoneburg)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-to-ban-religious-clothing-items/219732/87 "2003-12-20T15:23:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dead Badger \* > \*\*So basically, school is a place for suppressing individuality at the whim of what the government determines to be normal? What a charming concept. > > **Stoneburg** , I’m somewhat bemused that you believe the pursuit of freedom is best served by banning something. You seize on the fact that there exist muslim women who do not want to wear headscarves, and reason that therefore they must be banned. You do not stop to consider that true freedom would be the freedom to wear one _if you so desire_. > > As for suppressing radicalism, born of disenfranchisement and a feeling of being an outsider, I am frankly amazed that you believe banning religious symbols will not exacerbate the problem. \*\* Yes, school is a place to suppress individuality, because we know that when the religious fathers order their daughters to wear scarves to school, setting them apart from their classmates, that is **really** about the daughter expressing her individuality. Please. > [@](#): > > I’m somewhat bemused that you believe the pursuit of freedom is best served by banning something. Yes, because banning slavery never did anything to serve freedom. Not all restrictions cause less freedom. > [@](#): > > As for suppressing radicalism, born of disenfranchisement and a feeling of being an outsider, I am frankly amazed that you believe banning religious symbols will not exacerbate the problem. I’m amazed how you managed to construe that from my post where I said “I don’t know if it will have any effect, or if it will be positive”. Please don’t make strawmen, there are enough of them. I’m actually anticipating that it will polarise the problem, but I am hopeful that in the long run it will be for the better. I don’t think people like you help much though. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-to-ban-religious-clothing-items/219732/88 "2003-12-20T15:59:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by clairobscur \* > [ > The yarmukale is “collateral damage” of the hijab issue, since they couldn’t single out the muslims. Nobody cared about it, previously. Sounds like this is a great recipe for further divisiveness, not assimilation. Or does anyone really think the observant Muslims aren’t going to see that they are treated differently than observant Jews? Would the hijab even be viewed as a problem in schools if Islam, and Muslims, weren’t viewed as a problem in French society at large? I think this is just going to create a large group of pissed-off, alienated French Muslims. I agree with those who believe this will lead to more Muslim children, especially teenage girls who most need to be exposed to mainstream society and learn to think for themselves, to be pulled out of the public school system and either a) home-schooled, which sure ain’t going to help assimilation or multiculturalism, or b) even sent back to live with relatives and go to school in a largely unicultural society where the hijab-wearing isn’t an issue. You know, my H.S. outlawed all headgear except that worn for religious reasons, but didn’t grill people about the specific nature of their religious reasons. I don’t remember any girls in hijab (or any Muslims at my school at all, although there must have been a few), but we had quite a number of yarmulkes and even a few of whatever the Sikh headcoverings are called. Never once did I hear them called a “classroom distraction;” the rule was aimed at gang-related clothing such as various baseball caps. And I still see Chicago college students in hijab all the time; why is this somehow not a problem in the classroom? ---
**Author:** ![county](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce7236/32.png) [@county](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/county)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-to-ban-religious-clothing-items/219732/89 "2003-12-20T16:36:20Z")
Please, can’t someone think of the children? These fucking head scarves are not being worn because the “children” want to express their individuality. they are worn because of their culture or their parents (and probably occasionally becuase the child wants to). But it doesn’t really make any difference because these are children. Why don’t you let them express their individuality by not going to school if they choose not to? No, the children need to learn to read and write so that later in life they can express their indivuduality (and bitch about the repressive school system they were forced to endure). I don’t know about France, but in the good old USA, even the most stringent military schools are not able to crank out little socially acceptable clones. ---
**Author:** ![ianzin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ed655f/32.png) [@ianzin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ianzin)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-to-ban-religious-clothing-items/219732/90 "2003-12-20T17:50:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shodan \* > \*\*You are arguing uniformity, and it has already been demonstrated that your arguments are shit. > > Which leaves us with the conclusion that you believe even the slightest deviation from the enforced hive identity is a danger to the educational process. > > These students want to wear a head scarf, as part of their religion. For them to do so is harmless. > > The major drawback of the scarves would seem to be that it offends atheist fascists like **ianzin** , and demonstrates resistance to group assimilation to people like you\*\* I’m sorry that you get your self-validation by hurling this kind of very ugly personal abuse around, but sticks and stones etc. I am not a fascist, nor does anything I have written constitute a fascist point of view. Perhaps you didn’t read what I actuallly wrote, or perhaps you only see what you want to see (it happens). I am not advocating that any religious observance be banned out outlawed. My previous post made this clear: people are free to adopt whatever mythologies they wish, barring harm to themselves or others. If you think this constitutes fascism, you might want to learn a bit more about what fascism really is. The innate contradiction of your own position is kind of hard to miss. Are you **in favour** of forcing - or trying to force - human beings to conform, and to eliminate or repress their individuality? You claim not to be. Are you **in favour** of social mechanisms which try to suppress ‘deviation from the hive mind’? You claim not to be. If no, then you might like to notice that these are characteristics of every mainstream religion. They all seek to compel children to adopt their own arbitrary code, and they do not tolerate deviation very well if at all. There are many examples, from every mainstream religion, but telling youg women that they _have_ to wear a headscarf is just one example. There are millions of young women all around the world who manage to complete their high school education without wearing a headscarf, so we know it serves no practical purpose and the wearing/non-wearing has no practical bearing on the purpose of attending school. So why insist on it? The insistence serves no purpose whatsoever. What terrible, harmful, bad, evil or wicked thing would happen, what calamitous event, if these girls decided not o wear a headscarf? Answer: none. You seem to believe you have strong feelings in favour of personal liberty and freedom. Yet you are supportive of social obedience mechanisms (religions) which seek to eliminate many aspects of personal freedom. What about the personal freedom of a young woman to choose what she wants to wear - headscarf or not? What about her rights to choose what she wants to eat (including any kind of meat she wants if that’s her choice), and whom she wants to marry and when? It is **religions** that seek to impose arbitrary codes of conformity and obedience and which use assorted brainwashing techniques (and threats) to achieve these ends. Make up your mind - are you in favour of imposed conformity, or not? If not, then you contradict yourself every time you defend social control mechanisms which seek to impose arbitrary dress codes of no practical value whatsoever. These arbitrary myths about, for example, dress, don’t even reflect well on the religions themselves. If we accept for a moment that god exists, do you really think it cares if you wear a headscarf or not? My guess is that it isn’t a high priority, and that other things would come a lot higher on the agenda (e.g. learn to use the intellect you were given, try to learn about your own individual potential, be kind, seek to love and to achieve inclusion and to accept other people as your equals, rather than promote hatred and separatism and division). I think it’s a good idea if we learn to respect and love one another. I don’t think this is helped by organising ourselves into ‘us and them’ tribes, backed up with notions akin to ‘ours is the One True Way and people who think differently are wrong / bad / infidel / ignorant / destined for damnation / legitimate targets for terrorist acts’, especially when these tribal divisions are based on arbitrary and out-moded mythologies left over from less enlightened understandings of how the universe works. And that ain’t fascism. Happy holidays to you, and I hope you get over your anger habit. ---
**Author:** ![Rysto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecccb3/32.png) [@Rysto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysto)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-to-ban-religious-clothing-items/219732/91 "2003-12-20T18:58:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dead Badger \* > **So basically, school is a place for suppressing individuality at the whim of what the government determines to be normal? What a charming concept.** Yeah, that’s pretty much how it works. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by ianzin_ > **You seem to believe you have strong feelings in favour of personal liberty and freedom. Yet you are supportive of social obedience mechanisms (religions) which seek to eliminate many aspects of personal freedom.** People can choose what religion they practise. Someone who chooses to follow a religion is hardly being forced to conform. You can argue that some children are forced to follow a religion by their parents, but this law is not going to address the problem in any real sense. > [@](#): > > What about the personal freedom of a young woman to choose what she wants to wear - headscarf or not? The irony of this statement is shocking. Care to rethink your position? ---
**Author:** ![Rysto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecccb3/32.png) [@Rysto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysto)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-to-ban-religious-clothing-items/219732/92 "2003-12-20T19:01:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Rysto \* > You can argue that some children are forced to follow a religion by their parents, but this law is not going to address the problem in any real **sense.** Um, I think I meant to say way, not sense. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-to-ban-religious-clothing-items/219732/93 "2003-12-20T19:38:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ianzin \* > I’m sorry that you get your self-validation by hurling this kind of very ugly personal abuse around, but sticks and stones etc. Considering your hate-filled diatribe against religion that constitued the whole of your last post here, I find this really quite amusing. I’m sorry you have to get your self-validation by mocking the beliefs of others. > [@](#): > > I am not a fascist, nor does anything I have written constitute a fascist point of view. Perhaps you didn’t read what I actuallly wrote, or perhaps you only see what you want to see (it happens). I am not advocating that any religious observance be banned out outlawed. My previous post made this clear: people are free to adopt whatever mythologies they wish, barring harm to themselves or others. If you think this constitutes fascism, you might want to learn a bit more about what fascism really is. Your previous post made that perfectly clear: Whatever mythologies they want… so long as you don’t have to see or think about them. > [@](#): > > The innate contradiction of your own position is kind of hard to miss. Are you **in favour** of forcing - or trying to force - human beings to conform, and to eliminate or repress their individuality? You claim not to be. Are you **in favour** of social mechanisms which try to suppress ‘deviation from the hive mind’? You claim not to be. > > If no, then you might like to notice that these are characteristics of every mainstream religion. They all seek to compel children to adopt their own arbitrary code, and they do not tolerate deviation very well if at all. There are many examples, from every mainstream religion, but telling youg women that they _have_ to wear a headscarf is just one example. Strawman. The debate here isn’t on the merits of religion, it’s on wether the state has the right to determine where and when its citizens can make free expression of their religion. > [@](#): > > There are millions of young women all around the world who manage to complete their high school education without wearing a headscarf, so we know it serves no practical purpose and the wearing/non-wearing has no practical bearing on the purpose of attending school. So why insist on it? The insistence serves no purpose whatsoever. What terrible, harmful, bad, evil or wicked thing would happen, what calamitous event, if these girls decided not o wear a headscarf? Answer: none. And what terrible, harmful, bad, evil, or wicked thing would happen if the girls _continue_ to wear headscarves? > [@](#): > > You seem to believe you have strong feelings in favour of personal liberty and freedom. Yet you are supportive of social obedience mechanisms (religions) which seek to eliminate many aspects of personal freedom. What about the personal freedom of a young woman to choose what she wants to wear - headscarf or not? What about her rights to choose what she wants to eat (including any kind of meat she wants if that’s her choice), and whom she wants to marry and when? It is **religions** that seek to impose arbitrary codes of conformity and obedience and which use assorted brainwashing techniques (and threats) to achieve these ends. So you think the best way to strike a blow for personal freedom is to pass a law limiting personal freedom? And you’re calling other posters hypocrites? Here’s a pack of matches. Now get out there and save that village. > [@](#): > > Make up your mind - are you in favour of imposed conformity, or not? If not, then you contradict yourself every time you defend social control mechanisms which seek to impose arbitrary dress codes of no practical value whatsoever. Sorry, are you talking about Islam or the French government here? > [@](#): > > These arbitrary myths about, for example, dress, don’t even reflect well on the religions themselves. If we accept for a moment that god exists, do you really think it cares if you wear a headscarf or not? My guess is that it isn’t a high priority, and that other things would come a lot higher on the agenda (e.g. learn to use the intellect you were given, try to learn about your own individual potential, be kind, seek to love and to achieve inclusion and to accept other people as your equals, rather than promote hatred and separatism and division). Another strawman, although I do note that you read a hell of a lot into a simple fucking scarf. > [@](#): > > I think it’s a good idea if we learn to respect and love one another. I don’t think this is helped by organising ourselves into ‘us and them’ tribes, backed up with notions akin to ‘ours is the One True Way and people who think differently are wrong / bad / infidel / ignorant / destined for damnation / legitimate targets for terrorist acts’, especially when these tribal divisions are based on arbitrary and out-moded mythologies left over from less enlightened understandings of how the universe works. It’s clear that your “love and respect” only extends so far as to cover those who think, act, and dress exactly like you. You want to see a good example of tribalism? Take a look in the mirror. > [@](#): > > And that ain’t fascism. Nope, it’s just stupid. ---
**Author:** ![county](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce7236/32.png) [@county](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/county)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-to-ban-religious-clothing-items/219732/94 "2003-12-20T22:45:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Miller \* > \*\* The debate here isn’t on the merits of religion, it’s on wether the state has the right to determine where and when its citizens can make free expression of their religion. \*\* Well, that is your opinion of what the debate is about. A lot of people are debating a lot of issues in this thread. That said, you definition of the issue fails to take into account that we are talking about children in school - not adults in a public setting. The idea that these children are “making free expression of their religion” flies in the face of the parent telling the child what she will or will not wear. Explain that. Does the parent not have the right to tell the child what to wear? If the parent does, is the parent interfering with the childs “free expression of religion?” No, the kid needs to leanr to read and write and let the political issues take care of themselvs. ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-to-ban-religious-clothing-items/219732/95 "2003-12-20T22:50:15Z")
Question for you guys. How is it that generally the same crowd who adovcates the removal of religion from American public schools, i.e., no school prayer, removing “under God” from the POA, secular “holiday pageants”, etc. is now in the position to call the French “fascists” for trying to preserve the decidedly secular nature of their public schools and society in general? I thought you wanted secularism??? ---
**Author:** ![county](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce7236/32.png) [@county](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/county)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-to-ban-religious-clothing-items/219732/96 "2003-12-20T23:02:55Z")
Well, anything to bash the French, damn, I’ve been arguing in their favor, well, never to late to change sides. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-to-ban-religious-clothing-items/219732/97 "2003-12-20T23:07:11Z")
Jesus Christ, **county** , you are so fucking stupid it makes my teeth hurt. **milroyj** : I want every citizen to be able to make their own decisions about God without coercion from the state. I no more want an atheist state than I want a Christian state: I want my state to be religiously neutral. ---
**Author:** ![Akatsukami](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ea666f/32.png) [@Akatsukami](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akatsukami)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-to-ban-religious-clothing-items/219732/98 "2003-12-20T23:19:59Z")
Just as a reminder: the last time that I looked, France _was_ independent of the United States. ---
**Author:** ![county](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce7236/32.png) [@county](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/county)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2003, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-to-ban-religious-clothing-items/219732/99 "2003-12-21T00:07:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Miller \* > \*\*Jesus Christ, **county** , you are so fucking stupid it makes my teeth hurt. > > **milroyj** : I want every citizen to be able to make their own decisions about God without coercion from the state. I no more want an atheist state than I want a Christian state: I want my state to be religiously neutral. \*\* Well, they can, even in France. But soon they won’t be able to express their religion (in an overt manner) in the state’s school system. I noticed you took time to call me stupid. That certainly wins points in most debating societies (not). (BM) ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2003, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-to-ban-religious-clothing-items/219732/100 "2003-12-21T05:49:16Z")
> [@](#): > > Well, these are children, in school to learn fundamental life-skills and if they don’t learn how to read, well they ain’t gonna be exchanging very many “ideas” because they will be too ignorant. Great: belittle children just as you belittle their parents desire to raise them according to their families traditions and convictions. > [@](#): > > They want to express themselves, that is what college and the rest of their lives is about. And if the parents don’t like it, well, there are options. Why should we do something merely to piss off parents when accomodation costs nothing, and gains everything? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-to-ban-religious-clothing-items/219732.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-to-ban-religious-clothing-items/219732.md?page=6)