France to ban religious clothing items

Nah, he’s more of a Gaullist, except without all that honor. In any case, on an American scale (and even by technical definition) he would be considered a socialist. France is a social democracy, so some watered-down form of socialism is the standard; even the French right are socialists in a manner of speaking.

I don’t even see what they are trying to do. I can’t see this accomplishing anything positive, only possibly driving young Muslims out of public schools and into Muslim schools. Sounds great. The only other thing I can think of is that they are trying to end students being easily identifiable as members of a particular religion, which sounds to me like coloring all the black people’s skin white so there won’t be any more racism.

The problem the French (and much of Europe, AFAIK, but I can speak with some knowledge on France) have had in dealing with their Muslim population is that they never assimilated them. Muslims have always been treated separately, both in the segregationist sense and the multiculturalist sense. This has led to the growth of radicalism in France’s Muslim population.

If they want to stop Muslim radicalism, maybe they should actually stop them from, you know, attacking Jews and threatening cops.

I agree with you on the latter point, but I think FriarTed is referring to the imposition of secularism by a government on private citizens. This, to my mind, is not what a secular state ought to entail. It should mean that the state has absolutely sod all to do with religion, other than protecting the right to freedom thereof. Plainly, the french government has not only grabbed the wrong end of the stick, but is busy poking the other end in people’s eyes for fun.

AIUI, this will be far from political suicide for Chirac (at least in the short term) as the idea enjoys massive popular support in France. This depresses me far more than the fact that politicians suggested the ban, as politicians can always be relied on to be idiots. That a populace can so whole-heartedly embrace the erosion of basic freedoms is really quite upsetting, though.

So Christian girls can wear headscarves and but Muslim girls can’t? now that’s equality.

Not exactly. Christians are, in effect, getting special treatment because this law isn’t going to effect them as much as observant Jews or Muslims. Except for the Pope, Christians don’t go in much for the protective religious headgear. The law is forcing non-Christians to give up something they regard as important to their religion, while Christians do not have to make any sort of similar concession. Don’t sound too fair to me.

Well, no, if you have the compulsory singing it would need to be something French, don’t you think?

Miller, you did read the story, yes? Particularly the part which stated:

(Emphasis added.)
So, Chirac is not proposing a law banning religious headgear, he is proposing one banning religious symbols, whether they are worn on the head, around the neck, or on the ass.

Akatsukami, you’re right to an extent - superficially the law is non-discriminatory, or at least it notionally discriminates equally against all religions. However, Christians don’t tend to wear enormous crosses - it’s hard to think of anyone I know who wears a cross that could be considered of “manifestly excessive dimensions”. Furthermore, there is no scriptural or major traditional direction to wear such an item, unlike in Islam and Judaism. The law therefore directly affects Muslims and Jews to a far greater extent than it does Christians. It’s also worth noting that France has (I believe) only one private islamic school, leaving Muslims with far fewer options than Christians, should they wish to continue observing their religion.

I fully understand that this law would impose more restrictions on some than others. I also understand that this may be by design.

But, I don’t think it is as big an issue as many would like to make it. My perspective comes from the Memphis city school system (Memphis, TN) where I have watched similar scenarios played out, albeit on a much smaller scale, for years. I have watched the school system become a battleground for “freedom of speech” “freedom of dress” and to many other issues to count.

I am privy to this thru personal sources and the evening news.
The only people who have gained anything in these petty political battles are the people who had a political agenda in the first place. the losers however, have been the taxpayers and more importantly the children.

The Memphis city school system has over 80% of the schools who are failing the state proficiency exams- that is one city providing 80% + for the entire state.

The children aren’t learning how to read and write and add and subtract and that’s a handicap today.

Yes, I am for uniforms and anything else that either focuses on basic education or lends itself to the elimination of distractions for the students - fuck, they can learn to be PC on this board after they learn how to turn on the computer.

So, IMO what France is doing is ok with me.

Dead Badger, it’s certainly legitimate to question whether the notoriously anti-assimilation French would actually apply such a law with a more even hand than, say, Dixie did in applying the “separate but (nominally) equal” doctrine in the first half of the last century.

In keeping with Bricker’s notion of the value of fake postings, however, I wonder with what applause a post claiming that the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals had forbidden the wearing of crucifixes in public schools as “having a chilling effect on the expression of alternative religious beliefs on public property clearly forbidden by the First Amendment” would be greeted.

JM le Penn is a socialist? compared to who?

It just seems wrong to me. I guess burqas could be a problem that could eventully cause some sort of government action, but that’s just due to the potential for abuse. But a head scarf? A yarmulke? That’s pretty fucked up. I think freedom of religion is something that makes a country stronger.

You consider the French “notoriously anti-assimilation”? I think it’s the other way around. The French are extremely “pro-assimilation”. That’s one of the things that is behind the anti-headscarf movement. There’s this idea that wearing headscarfs just isn’t a “French” thing.

More generally, though, France is not a religious country. Even though somewhere between 83-88% of the population identifies itself as Roman Catholic, most of the population doesn’t actively practice the religion, or see their Catholicism as relevant to their daily life. So, a lot of French don’t see why wearing the headscarves are important to some Muslims. The attitude is “Ok, you’re Muslim, but surely you don’t follow all those silly rules about not drinking wine and covering your hair.”

I would go a little further than President Chirac: I would propose a new law outlawing Islam in France. Under this new law, current followers of Islam would also lose their French citizenship, and conversion to Judaism, Christianity or Atheism would not be permitted. Now stay with me here, the government would need to set up “detention camps” to hold all of these, newly created, illegal aliens until such time as they can be repatriated to their country of origin. This would all be carried out in the most humane manner possible, but those who resisted would be subject to immediate forcible deportation.:cool:

One doesn’t venture far into The Pit expecting a great deal of intelligent, rational comment. Even so, I’m surprised at how un-thnking some of these responses have been.

We have had a few knee-jerk responses invoking the term ‘fascist’. Either these posters don’t know much about the Chirac administration, or they don’t know what this news story is about, or they don’t understand what ‘fascism’ is. There is nothing in this proposed legislation which has any bearing whatsoever on someone’s freedom to believe in the irrational out-moded mythology of their choice. What the proposed law does support, as I do, is the notion that this is something people can and should do in the privacy of their own homes - much like smoking, or deciding who they want to have sex with. It has nothing to do with me, and I respect their privacy and their freedom to do what they want in the privacy of their own homes (so long as nobody gets hurt). But keep it private.

A few posters have presented ‘racism’ analogies which don’t quite work. The spavined notion of coloring everyone’s skin white was notably dislocated from anything to do with the OP or this proposed law. It is a fact that there are people with different shades of skin. There is no reason whatsoever to support the contention that different so-called religious faiths are about anything ‘real’ at all. There is nothing to suggest that the various and assorted gods, demons, imps, pixies, elves and whatever else people choose to ‘worship’ (talk to themselves in a solemn or meditative way) exist anywhere except in the imagination. Of course, if some people have an emotional attachment to big invisible friends who have, surprise surprise, singled them out for favourable treatment, that’s their business and not mine or Chriac’s. If these people want to believe in fairy stories in the privacy of their own homes, fine. Nobody is stopping them. But in a public place, especially one ostensibly devoted to education and learning to use one’s mind, I think it’s a good idea to ask people to leave their own private emotional delusions back home, where they belong.

It is always surprising to hear religious people play the ‘bigotry’ card. There is nothing more bigoted than asserting that one’s own particular brand of imaginative mythology is the ‘one true religion’ and that the others are somehow inferior or misguided. This is the purest bigotry of all, since it is based on nothing except myth, and irrational, prejudicial myth at that.

Religion divides and categorises people - us and them, the righteous and the unrighteous, the saved and the non-saved, the right and the wrong, the clean and unclean. I believe we can move on beyond this divisive attitude, and learn to respect and care for and love one another for what we are: one species, sharing one planet. I can see value in eliminating outward and public symbols of divisive bigotry (=religion) in public places. To me, and many others, they represent the perpetuation of irrational mythologies which divide people rather than bringing them together; which create sects and cults and castes rather than allowing us to see each other as one and the same and of equal status; and which have been responsible for much senseless tribal violence and bloodshed in human history.

You want to believe in pixies or gods? You’re welcome. Do it at home. You want to learn to use your mind and your intellect? Good, come to school. Good idea not to mix the two up.

Thank you, ianzin for showing that you don’t have to believe in God to be an intolerant prick.

Me too.

France has excellent public school system. French are taking great pride in it. They simply don’t want to see their schools falling prey to so-called “individual freedoms” as expressed by means of gangster and/or tribal clothing and mentality, that keep wrecking US schools.

Also, there is nothing particularly “Moslem” in going around in “bee-keeper suits”. Moslem people run extremely wide gamut in the manners of dress, much wider than Westerners: from complete enclosure to the most provocative exposure; it all depends on the local culture and individual mind-set.

Given the notorious ghettoization of Muslim immigrants, yes, I’d say so.

More on the order of the liberal-radical wing having fought viciously (and not without cause) against the monarchist-Catholic wing in the last years of the 19th and early years of the 20th century. Dreyfus Affair, Associations Law, and so forth?

I don’t recall seeing this here, so I’ll mention it. My understanding is the ban on religeous symbols is to reduce the violence against ethnic groups. The French are so understanding and tolerant.

(Off to find the cite someone is bound to ask)

That’s not solely a French problem, though. That’s a European problem. But a lot of that has to do with the lack of desire by a lot of immigrants to assimilate. And some of it is good old fashoned racism, which exists in France just like it does everywhere else in the world.

Right, but the liberal-radical wing won. And what’s happening here is largely an updated version of what happened in the late 19th-early 20th century…with the Muslim immigrants taking the place of the Catholics.

OK, I’ll amend my statement to “the notoriously anti-assimilation Europeans, among whom are the French” :wink:

I don’t quite see the line of argument here. Enhance, please?