# France wins; Yahoo! rolls over. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 3, 2001, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-wins-yahoo-rolls-over/48226 "2001-01-03T13:28:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2001, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-wins-yahoo-rolls-over/48226/1 "2001-01-03T13:28:41Z")
[http://abcnews.go.com/sections/scitech/DailyNews/yahoo010103.html](http://abcnews.go.com/sections/scitech/DailyNews/yahoo010103.html) From the above article: > [@](#): > > Yahoo! Inc. will stop carrying online auctions of Nazi artifacts and other hate-related materials after some users complained that such items promote hate and violence. > > The new restrictions, which take effect a week from today, could also address a November court ruling from France requiring Yahoo to block such items from French users. > > Although Yahoo has insisted it cannot limit access to certain geographic regions, as the French court ordered, Yahoo may effectively comply by blocking the items from everyone. The precedent has been set. Now all web sites around the world now fall under the jurisdiction of France. Actually, it’s worse than that. Now every site has to remove everything that is against the law in **any country** or be subject to that country’s legislation. I wish Yahoo! would have simply pulled all its resources from France ([Yahoo.fr](http://Yahoo.fr), etc) and ignored the French courts. ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2001, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-wins-yahoo-rolls-over/48226/2 "2001-01-03T13:58:57Z")
I can see that this is a bad thing when applied to **all laws in all countries** , but what’s so bad about outlawing auctioning Nazi material? I, for one, think it’s an interesting case. The Internet cannot and will not be a safe haven for perverts and fascists forever. International laws or treaties to prevent this are not in place yet, so some countries are just taking care of business. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2001, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-wins-yahoo-rolls-over/48226/3 "2001-01-03T15:14:52Z")
I disagree with the decision. Now that the (neo-)Nazis will no longer be shopping on the net, it will be just that much harder to track them down. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2001, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-wins-yahoo-rolls-over/48226/4 "2001-01-03T15:24:30Z")
Interesting. Are we suggesting that outlawing, for example, the ownership of a swastika flag, or an SS armband, are things we should do in the U.S.? Coldfire - not sure what the laws are in the Netherlands - are such things legal, or not? - Rick ---
**Author:** ![Hamish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a5b964/32.png) [@Hamish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamish)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2001, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-wins-yahoo-rolls-over/48226/5 "2001-01-03T15:41:59Z")
Well, considering that the twits in _American_ courts already think that they can keep websites anywhere from mongering porn to the delicate eyes of Yankee children, this decision ought to be right in line. ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2001, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-wins-yahoo-rolls-over/48226/6 "2001-01-03T15:42:56Z")
It would depend on the intent. A museum owning an SS emblem, obviously for educational purposes, is fine. A creepy fascist who owns an attic filled with Nazi-glorifying material is breaking the law. An online auction of Nazi material would be breaking the same laws, I suppose, as long as it took place on Dutch territory. I know, hard to determine, in this case. To put things into perspective, it might be useful to know that in The Netherlands (which I generally regard as one of the most liberal and free-thinking countries in the world), _Mein Kampf_ is, to this day, and illegal book. You may not own, nor sell a copy of it. Also, bringing the Hitler salute in public can result in a prison sentence. Yes, we take it that serious. I completely understand that the French verdict may look somewhat outlandish from an American perspective. But just try to imagine the local factors. There are still lots of WWII victims alive. And even if there weren’t, it would _still_ be considered important to send out the message that recent history has been very grim. ---
**Author:** ![waterj2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@waterj2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waterj2)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2001, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-wins-yahoo-rolls-over/48226/7 "2001-01-03T15:48:03Z")
While I’m not going to shed a tear over the unavailability of Nazi memorabilia, I do believe that it is wrong for a government to prohibit these things from being sold. To me it’s a simple matter of freedom of speech. I think the Internet should be a safe haven for people of all beliefs, as long as they are not harming anyone else. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2001, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-wins-yahoo-rolls-over/48226/8 "2001-01-03T15:48:23Z")
Sorry - that last post was by me, not Hamish. (We’re roomies and we use the same computer for net access.) ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2001, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-wins-yahoo-rolls-over/48226/9 "2001-01-03T15:52:38Z")
By the way, I disagree with France’s decision, but I think it’s a log/beam kind of routine. And Coldie: Do libraries have Mein Kampf on file? ---
**Author:** ![waterj2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@waterj2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waterj2)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2001, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-wins-yahoo-rolls-over/48226/10 "2001-01-03T16:03:25Z")
What American judges have tried to keep porn off the internet? Last I checked, it was fairly freely available. As for the laws in the Netherlands, that’s censorship, pure and simple. Just as I would not have my beliefs suppressed, so I would not suppress the beliefs of others, as hateful and vile as they may be. I believe strongly in the old adage that eternal vigilance is the price of freedom. ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2001, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-wins-yahoo-rolls-over/48226/11 "2001-01-03T16:03:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by matt\_mcl \* > \*\*And Coldie: Do libraries have Mein Kampf on file? \*\* Absolutely not. I think that one or two WWII museums have a copy, and the State Library has one. Behind lock and key. **waterj2** : trading Nazi goodies _could_ be harming people. The average WWII vet might freak out when they spot an SS trenchcoat on the Champs Elysées, after all. ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2001, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-wins-yahoo-rolls-over/48226/12 "2001-01-03T16:06:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by waterj2 \* > **As for the laws in the Netherlands, that’s censorship, pure and simple.** Absolutely. And, in my view, very understandably so. ---
**Author:** ![Screwtape](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Screwtape](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Screwtape)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2001, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-wins-yahoo-rolls-over/48226/13 "2001-01-03T16:10:01Z")
Heh. Just when I wonder if I’m being too hard on the Europeans they do something like this. So you can go to prison in the Netherlands for holding your own arm in a particular position. You can go to prison for just owning copies of a pretty badly-written book. In France you can go to jail for selling objets d’bad taste to someone who might want to just decorate his little Nazi hovel and dream sick little dreams… Folks, this is stupid. It is not the owning of things that is the problem, it is using things to hurt other people. It is not holding your arm in a silly posture that should be illegal, it is hurting someone else with it. By putting the power of the law against such things, you are lending power to things that, if left alone, would just die. That WWII vet who freaks out, should not freak out. It is not incumbent upon society to keep itself free from anything that might cause someone to freak out. We are responsible for our own non-freaked-out states. Any of you know the parable of the old monk, the young monk and the river? ---
**Author:** ![neutron\_star](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/51bf81/32.png) [@neutron\_star](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/neutron_star)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2001, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-wins-yahoo-rolls-over/48226/14 "2001-01-03T16:17:27Z")
Gotta go with waterj2 on this one. This is just the kind of thing that freedom of speech is meant to protect - things that most people consider offensive. I am by no means a Nazi sympathizer, but I think the French and Dutch laws in regard to this are ridiculous. I’m not sure what exactly they’re afraid of, either. Do they think someone is going to read Mein Kampf and be so inspired by it that they will become the next Hitler? Well, we have 281 million people on this side of the Atlantic with easy access to it and that hasn’t happened yet. Hell, we had it in my high school library. I know a few people who read it. Some were racists; others were simply interested in history. > [@](#): > > trading Nazi goodies could be harming people. The average WWII vet might freak out when they spot an SS trenchcoat on the Champs Elysées, after all. By the same token, imagine a Jewish concentration camp survivor whose mind is flooded with terrible flashbacks every time he hears the word “holocaust.” Should we outlaw that word? As much respect as I have for veterans, we cannot base our laws on what mental illnesses or post-traumatic stress disorders they may or may not have. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2001, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-wins-yahoo-rolls-over/48226/15 "2001-01-03T16:23:06Z")
Waterj2m, Screwtape et al, you’re absolutely correct - except when it comes to Nazis. For Europeans and certain others, Nazis are an exception to just about everytyhing. It’s an issue which transcends conventional logic. ---
**Author:** ![Screwtape](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Screwtape](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Screwtape)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2001, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-wins-yahoo-rolls-over/48226/16 "2001-01-03T16:28:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Alessan \* > \*\*…Nazis are an exception to just about everytyhing. It’s an issue which transcends conventional logic. \*\* Oh. Well, that’s all right, then. Gosh, I wish I’d known that I could claim “transcends conventional logic” when I run out of ammo. I may never lose another debate! Thanks! Or, could it mean that “transcends conventional logic” means “I’m too emotionally involved to think straight”? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2001, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-wins-yahoo-rolls-over/48226/17 "2001-01-03T16:31:46Z")
No. It means that in Europe, “Suppression of Nazis” takes precedence over “Freedom of Speech”. ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2001, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-wins-yahoo-rolls-over/48226/18 "2001-01-03T16:35:07Z")
Whatever ot means, **Screwtape** , it is important to note that you cannot simply judge these Dutch and French laws through an American perspective (I’m assuming that you were born after WWII), and then dismiss them as “stupid”, “ridiculous”, or “too emotionally involved”. When it comes to a nation trying to recover from a major catastrophy, more things than just rationality apply. That may not be your prefered line of reasoning, but it **certainly** isn’t your place to _condemn_ it. ---
**Author:** ![Screwtape](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Screwtape](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Screwtape)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2001, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-wins-yahoo-rolls-over/48226/19 "2001-01-03T16:37:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Alessan \* > \*\*No. It means that in Europe, “Suppression of Nazis” takes precedence over “Freedom of Speech”. \*\* And that’s a _ **good** _ thing? ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2001, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-wins-yahoo-rolls-over/48226/20 "2001-01-03T16:39:42Z")
I agree that in the long run, the various European bans on Nazi-related literature and parapharnalia are probably a bad thing. But before my fellow Americans get all haughty, please acknowledge our history of sedition acts, McCarthy hearings and red scares and similar. Now add in tens of millions of dead countrymen, something we haven’t seen since our own Civil War and have _never_ seen on the scale that Europe saw. Kind of makes things a little more understandable, no? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-wins-yahoo-rolls-over/48226.md?page=2)