# France wins; Yahoo! rolls over. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 3, 2001, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-wins-yahoo-rolls-over/48226 "2001-01-03T13:28:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![hawthorne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@hawthorne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hawthorne)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2001, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-wins-yahoo-rolls-over/48226/41 "2001-01-04T11:58:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by spooje \* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by Revtim \* > > The biggest issue I have with the situation is that of jurisdiction. Suddenly, French courts can fine a US company for what is on a US server, and not be ignored as fools trying the bend the world to their view. > > > > And I feel the reverse should be true. The French court should have **zero** say as to what is on a US server. > > > > Finding something deeply offensive does not give you jurisdiction over it. > > I gotta go with **Revtim** , here. _This_ is the larger issue. I wish Yahoo would have stuck to it’s guns. \*\* Well yes that is the big issue, but the issue cuts both ways. It is not clear to me that the existence of the internet should erradicate sovereignty and over-ride regional differences either. There will always be a country prepared to host a dodgy site, just like there will always be countries prepared to act as tax-havens or shelter the launderers of drug money. My bet is that countries like yours and mine would be prepared to act to prevent weakest-link controls on (say) fraud destroying national differences in laws. And it is amusing that some of you seek to impose your definitions of freedom on others. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2001, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-wins-yahoo-rolls-over/48226/42 "2001-01-04T12:31:55Z")
> [@](#): > > by super\_head: > Yet, we have idiots like the self-declared militia, the Ku Klux Klan, the Black Panthers, and other hate groups. Shall we start banning their thoughts as well? They’re doing this aswell. > [@](#): > > Yahoo said it would also ban the sale of items that promoted hate groups, such as the white supremacist Ku Klux Klan. They’ve also banned cigarettes, live animals and used underwear. > [@](#): > > eBay, another online auction service, bans hate materials only countries where their sale is illegal, such as France, Germany, Austria and Italy. Sellers may not deliver such items there, and buyers from those countries may not bid for them. Yahoo could have done this aswell but decided to go the whole hog. All info from [http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/americas/newsid\_1098000/1098466.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/americas/newsid_1098000/1098466.stm) They are appealing the ruling but even if they win it doesn’t look like they’d change their decision after the statements they have made. Like **picmr** I too find it amusing how some of you want to enforce your beliefs on other countries. The Netherlands is a haven of freedom. If they have made their decision about this **one** subject it should be viewed in context and should be respected IMO. ---
**Author:** ![bj0rn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a88e57/32.png) [@bj0rn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bj0rn)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2001, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-wins-yahoo-rolls-over/48226/43 "2001-01-04T12:48:53Z")
> [@](#): > > There is essentially zero, nada, zilch, zippo, null, bupkus and no redeeming qualities to the nazi establishment. Its aftermath serves only to propel new recruits into the ranks of hatemongers and bigots. So little of any benefit is served by any continuing exposure of the public to this drivel that it is hard to imagine why it merits discussion. banning it serves no purpose at all, if people are aware of what happened and realize how horrible the deeds that were done are that will do more help than simply banning the items. > [@](#): > > If I understand this correctly, the only handle France had on Yahoo was the fact that Yahoo had a daughter company in France - paying French taxes, hiring & firing under French law, the works. Like it or not (and in this specific case, I don’t), this daughter company operates under French law and must obey French court rulings. This doesn’t put the Internet under French jurisdiction - it establishes the fact that companies in France are under French jurisdiction. this is what matters about the yahoo ruling, what yahoo decided to to was to abandon the sale of theese products instead of pulling out of france. it would have been a VERY serious ruling if yahoo would not have had any contact in france at all. what i belive should be done is to enlighten people about what theese groups are and have been doing, not shut up about it and try to hide it under a pillow. bj0rn - … ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2001, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-wins-yahoo-rolls-over/48226/44 "2001-01-04T13:02:29Z")
> [@](#): > > what i belive should be done is to enlighten people about what theese groups are and have been doing, not shut up about it and try to hide it under a pillow. Holy misconception, Batman. Nobody said that the issue is kept quiet. On the contrary the is a huge amount of education and info. about it. ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2001, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-wins-yahoo-rolls-over/48226/45 "2001-01-04T13:25:09Z")
[Here’s](http://www.annefrank.nl/) [how silent we are](http://www.jhm.nl/e_museum/frame_museum.htm) [about WWII](http://www.oorlogsmuseum-overloon.nl/index.htm) :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![bj0rn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a88e57/32.png) [@bj0rn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bj0rn)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2001, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-wins-yahoo-rolls-over/48226/46 "2001-01-04T13:49:23Z")
how is the wwii history taught in schools? here i learned nothing of the violence, all i learned were simple facts…this and that many are belived to haved died etc… so far movies have been my best source for wwii history, thats sad! bj0rn - … ---
**Author:** ![Screwtape](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Screwtape](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Screwtape)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2001, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-wins-yahoo-rolls-over/48226/47 "2001-01-04T16:40:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Coldfire \* > \*\*…then explain the following: > [ul][li]“Parental Advisory” stickers on CD’s. _Unthinkable_ in the Netherlands.[/li][li]Dress codes in _public_ schools. That’s **your tax money** , and they’re telling your kids how to dress?[/li][li]The “beeping” of nasty words in TV shows. What are they afraid of?[/ul][/li]These things lead me to the conclusion that apparently, the faith in that theoretically sound Freedom Preserving System lacks strength in practise. \*\* **_[ul][li]Tu quoque - 2[_]Other logical fallacies - 0[/ul]**\*;)[/li] Saying, “Well, you do it too!” doesn’t address the original issue, and wouldn’t make it right if it did. ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2001, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-wins-yahoo-rolls-over/48226/48 "2001-01-04T16:53:10Z")
Well, no. Since when are you the Debate Umpire here? The point is that trying to “educate” someone about how a perfectly free society operates makes little sense when the illustrative example contains some flaws and imperfections as well. I’m not going to tell anyone here that my country is a perfect example to the rest of the world. Neither should anyone else, as far as I’m concerned. **That** was the point. ---
**Author:** ![Ptahlis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a8b319/32.png) [@Ptahlis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ptahlis)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2001, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-wins-yahoo-rolls-over/48226/49 "2001-01-04T19:19:46Z")
First, the freedom issue. **Everyone** has limits on their speech, from the dinkiest banana republic to the good old USA. In the US it would be absolutely ridiculous to contemplate making _Mein Kampf_ illegal, although we won’t let you broadcast dirty words, and McCarthyism isn’t so long ago you know. Our selection of what is to be verboten may differ, but we all do it. As far as Yahoo! and the French goes, I think that their resolution stinks. If France does not want its citizens to visit certain sites it should be France that does the blocking, not Yahoo!. It is one thing for them to ask the French division of Yahoo! to block French citizens from getting to certain things on American Yahoo! servers through their site. It is an entirely different thing to ask the parent company to try and block any French citizen coming from any ISP from access to those American servers. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2001, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-wins-yahoo-rolls-over/48226/50 "2001-01-04T21:04:55Z")
Danielinthewolvesden wrote: > [@](#): > > OH, and, good buddies over at Yahoo? I have heard that in China it is illegal to own a Bible. Well, **that** I can understand. The bible is a **lot** more violent than _Mein Kampf_. ---
**Author:** ![waterj2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@waterj2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waterj2)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2001, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-wins-yahoo-rolls-over/48226/51 "2001-01-04T22:29:17Z")
[QUOTE] _Originally posted by Screwtape \* **[ul][li]Tu quoque - 2[]Other logical fallacies - 0[/ul]**_;)\*\*[/li][/QUOTE] Uh, what about Daniel’s incredibly slippery slope? By the way, if the Flag Burning ban did get those four more votes, it would still need to pass the House of Representatives with a similar majority and then be ratified by 38 state legislatures. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2001, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-wins-yahoo-rolls-over/48226/52 "2001-01-05T02:04:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by picmr \* > \*\*And it is amusing that some of you seek to impose your definitions of freedom on others. \*\* Forgive me if I’m misunderstanding you picmr, but are you saying that people are trying to impose their definitions of freedom on France? It seems to me that in the Yahoo!/France case it is France that is imposing their definition on what should be free on a non-French company, not the other way around. Again, sorry if I misunderstood. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2001, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-wins-yahoo-rolls-over/48226/53 "2001-01-05T02:20:49Z")
AFAIK France just said they couldn’t do it in France. There is legally grow canabis in Holland but my Government wouldn’t allow it to be shipped to here via a web site as it’s illegal. I don’t see much differences. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2001, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-wins-yahoo-rolls-over/48226/54 "2001-01-05T13:28:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by yojimbo \* > \*\*AFAIK France just said they couldn’t do it in France. > > There is legally grow canabis in Holland but my Government wouldn’t allow it to be shipped to here via a web site as it’s illegal. I don’t see much differences. \*\* There’s a difference between outlawing the shipping of a product into your country, and outlawing a web page **in another country** that shows what is being sold. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2001, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-wins-yahoo-rolls-over/48226/55 "2001-01-05T15:17:39Z")
Yopu seem to be forgetting something. Yahoo is a company, not a state body. It can display items on anything it wants to, and can also restrict its search engines from displaying any information it wants to. If Yahoo auctions dosent want to sell Nazi Items, there is no freedom of speech law that will force them to sell Nazi items. Yahoo pulled the Nazi items as it is probably easier to do that wholescale than to try and defend lawsuits in every country that outlaws the sale of such Items. You can learn all you want to learn about Nazism without reading Mein Kampf. It is an important historical text, But it contains opinions and statements that cound be deemed extremely offensive to the citizens of a country. Censorship is very much a current opinion thing. In Ireland, “Debbie Does Dallas” is still banned, but “Lolita” was shown on the National Station last year. It all depends on wether the Government feels that the People that elected it would be comfortable with certain items being on general release. It is imperative that you consider this issue form the point of view of the countries that issues like this affect. you may not agree, but it dosent make it rediculous. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2001, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-wins-yahoo-rolls-over/48226/56 "2001-01-05T17:58:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Spiny Norman \* > **Fear Itself** - before you get too carried away with the basic superiority of the American view on free speech - might I remind you that the American Senate as late as last March reached a 63 to 37 vote for amending the constitution to allow prohibiting flag burning ? Not that bloody short of the 67 needed. (And yes, I consider a ban on flag burning censorship.) My point is not that America is free from assaults on liberty; far from it. The flag burning issue is a good point, and I agree with you one hundred percent. Not a day goes by without some government body proposing some restriction on my freedom of speech. I think the difference I was trying to make is that, in America, assaults on our constitutional rights are greeted with outrage, and people are mobilized to demonstrate. If a flag burning ammendment was ever passed, the sun would be blotted out with the smoke from the mass inceration of Old Glory, and I would be the first to flick my Bic. I don’t see a comparable response in France (or Europe in general) when blatant censorship is imposed. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2001, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-wins-yahoo-rolls-over/48226/57 "2001-01-05T18:09:31Z")
You’ve never seen the French demonstrate? Believe me man they’re world class at it. Also maybe the majority of people agree with the laws.(I don’t know if they do but I’ve never heard of any major opposition to anti-nazi laws). ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2001, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-wins-yahoo-rolls-over/48226/58 "2001-01-05T19:55:24Z")
Hmmmm…I can understand why Mein Kampf was banned after the war while de-nazification was still going on. But it is 56 years after the war ended, are there any nazis left? I guess it’s one of those things that if someone proposed banning “Mein Kampf” now it would never happen, but since you have to take the affirmative step of unbanning it no one wants to be seen to be in favor of nazism. Btw…I’ve got a copy of Mein Kampf on my bookshelf, published in the late 30s in America, and I read it. Pretty boring history writing by a crank. If he hadn’t gone on to perpetrate WWII no one would think it any worse than dozens or hundreds of other racist tracts. I dunno, though…the whole “the only copies are under lock and key” thing strikes me as a bit silly. I mean, it’s not like anyone is going to actually READ it, or be inspired by it. Maybe some neo-nazis would want a copy, but they’re not going to READ it, they’d just want to have it. Anyway, there are many more virulent racist books out there…anyone else read “The Turner Diaries”? ---
**Author:** ![Zenster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/cdc98d/32.png) [@Zenster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zenster)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2001, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-wins-yahoo-rolls-over/48226/59 "2001-01-05T22:56:10Z")
Just to clarify; I think that the concentration camps should be left in perpetuity as a monument to man’s inhumanity to man. Same with a section of the Berlin wall, complete with guard towers and everything. The world need solid reminders of where we have come from and what direction we need to go in. The continuing existence of nazism is a disturbing and crystal clear example of how far we still have to go. To engage in such hate mongering goes beyond offensive, it borders on seditious conduct against mankind as a whole. That something is offensive or disturbing is not sufficient grounds in and of itself for total proscription or censorship. The advocacy of genocide and extermination, the desire to re-establish an underclass of humanity and the wish for the reinstatement of tyranny _is_ worthy of censorship and the world shall not suffer in its absence. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2001, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-wins-yahoo-rolls-over/48226/60 "2001-01-06T07:33:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by yojimbo \* > **You’ve never seen the French demonstrate? Believe me man they’re world class at it.** The French university students _used to_ champion ideas like [ending the Vietnam War in 1968](http://www.etext.org/Politics/MIM/mt/mt8french.html), but lately their motives and issues are less than altruistic; usually something like [outrage over tuition increases](http://www.webcom.com/~peace/PEACTREE/stuff/stuff/html/0388.html). Call me when they take up issues like censorship. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-wins-yahoo-rolls-over/48226.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-wins-yahoo-rolls-over/48226.md?page=4)