# France's "burqa ban": will it just drive muslim woman into seclusion? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 11, 2011, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frances-burqa-ban-will-it-just-drive-muslim-woman-into-seclusion/577994 "2011-04-11T19:57:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frances-burqa-ban-will-it-just-drive-muslim-woman-into-seclusion/577994/41 "2011-04-11T23:57:31Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > It’s a strangely American thing - The belief that people are free to believe or NOT believe, as they choose, without interference from government. Just as well the French are not bound by American values then, and can decide what they want to do for themselves. Any more than America has the right to impose it’s values on any Islamic country it has not invaded yet. > [@SteveG1](#): > > We are talking about the French, not some Shariah law third world shit hole. Meh, if they don’t control the massive muslim immigration with token measures such as these, in 100 years France will become the latter. > [@Miller](#): > > ADo you think Aqsa Parvez’s father, faced with such a law, would throw up his hands and say, “Okay, go ahead and wear a mini skirt?” Or do you think he’d either attempt to imprison her in their home, ship her back to Pakistan, or just murder her anyway? If he murdered her home in Pakistan, that would be for the Pakistani authorities to punish; since he _actually did murder_ her for refusal in Canada without any ban from the state supporting her refusal, I fail to see your point. > [@](#): > > For a great number of Muslim, France is their own country. You are aware, I hope, that “French” and “Muslim” are not mutually exclusive designations? Yet France is not an officially Islamic country, nor has been. She may not wish to put herself in the position of being dictated to by an alien religion. She does not want to be dictated to by the catholic faith either. > [@](#): > > You also seem to be taking the position that, if the French want to have this law, it’s not the business of anyone outside of France. Which is an interesting principle. I wonder how strictly you adhere to it. If I, as an American, should not criticize a French law that says a woman may not wear a burqa, am I similarly constrained from criticizing a Saudi Arabian law that says a woman _must_ wear a burqa? More to the point, is that a restriction you, personally, observe when it comes to discussions of laws in oppressive Islamic theocracies? Islamic countries have the right to dictate their own laws, and in accordance with Islamic Law if they want. Should I live in one I wouldn’t drink alcohol from respect to muslims. If I needed to drink alcohol I’d go back to Europe. I’d admit those muslims who disagree with Islam can’t simply go to another country and become secularized atheists or christians, since under Islamic Law apostacy from Islam carries some penalty, but other options such as revolution are open to such people. ( Sadly, revolution in muslim countries appears to be more frequently based on a return to religious purity rather than demanding secularization or ‘human rights’ for all. ) And you should certainly criticize, everybody has the right to criticize anything: they just shouldn’t believe that their views mean anything to those who exercise government. ---
**Author:** ![Oldeb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ea666f/32.png) [@Oldeb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oldeb)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frances-burqa-ban-will-it-just-drive-muslim-woman-into-seclusion/577994/42 "2011-04-12T01:19:23Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > Meh, if they don’t control the massive muslim immigration with token measures such as these, in 100 years France will become the latter. Could you manage to at least not be so blatant with your prejudice? For what it’s worth French citizens who practice Islam already make up about 10% of France. ([cite](http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/3842.htm)) _What you don’t seem to grasp is that it’s perfectly possible to be both French and Muslim at the same time_. In fact, there are about 6,000,000 people who already identify as such. If you really can’t learn to not see Muslims as some scary other who turn every place they touch into a third world country there isn’t much to talk about with you. You also seem to see the words Muslim and Arabic as interchangeable. They’re not. In fact the country with the largest Muslim population is Indonesia. > [@](#): > > If he murdered her home in Pakistan, that would be for the Pakistani authorities to punish; since he _actually did murder_ her for refusal in Canada without any ban from the state supporting her refusal, I fail to see your point. The point was that you seem to think Aqsa Parvez’s father was such a law-abiding citizen that if only there was a law against wearing the veil he would not have tried to force his daughter to wear one. For the rest of us the fact that he _straight up murdered his own daughter_ tends to imply that obeying national laws wasn’t exactly his strong point and he, as an individual, may have had a few issues to work out. > [@](#): > > Yet France is not an officially Islamic country, nor has been. She may not wish to put herself in the position of being dictated to by an alien religion. She does not want to be dictated to by the catholic faith either. Fun fact: [Most Catholic Churches in France are actually owned by the government and may be used rent free.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_France) It’s because they are have “cultural associations” and so are maintained by the State. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frances-burqa-ban-will-it-just-drive-muslim-woman-into-seclusion/577994/43 "2011-04-12T01:30:46Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > Just as well the French are not bound by American values then, and can decide what they want to do for themselves. Any more than America has the right to impose it’s values on any Islamic country it has not invaded yet. If an invasion is all it takes, we will attack France in the morning, right after we have our coffee :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frances-burqa-ban-will-it-just-drive-muslim-woman-into-seclusion/577994/44 "2011-04-12T01:31:44Z")
> [@Acid\_Lamp](#): > > I agree, except in this case the garment in question prevents anyone from determining\* anything at all \*about the wearer. Age, sex, even basic things like height and weight (with the exception of extreme cases in either category). They cannot be indentified by anyone if they simply took off the garment. The total anonymity is simply too dangerous to be tolerated in peaceful times, much less when it is linked with a religious culture that is currently indulging in violence and terrorism. Respecting religious freedoms and tolerating others does not mean I have to place everyone else at potential risk. Why the need for a law banning the burqa, specifically, when one banning face covering, whether it be with a scarf, a motorcycle helmet or a burqa, would suffice? Are there situations where a burqa whould not be tolerated but some other sort of face covering would (Halloween? In a hospital ward?). ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frances-burqa-ban-will-it-just-drive-muslim-woman-into-seclusion/577994/45 "2011-04-12T01:34:42Z")
> [@Acid\_Lamp](#): > > I agree, except in this case the garment in question prevents anyone from determining\* anything at all \*about the wearer. Age, sex, even basic things like height and weight (with the exception of extreme cases in either category). They cannot be indentified by anyone if they simply took off the garment. The total anonymity is simply too dangerous to be tolerated in peaceful times, much less when it is linked with a religious culture that is currently indulging in violence and terrorism. Respecting religious freedoms and tolerating others does not mean I have to place everyone else at potential risk. Given bombs can be put in undergarments, and garments are used to conceal weapons, drugs, and other items, do you support a mandatory nudity law? How about skiers. Sky masks are out, que no? Make up, and hair die can be used to change one’s appearance. Let’s outlaw it. Tanning salons too. Also platform shoes. They make people taller than they are. Edit: oh oh, contact lens and glasses! New hair styles too. Also beards. Since I shaved my goatee, and cut my hair shorts not so many people recognize me. Edit: what I’m saying is your philosophy is crazy if fairly applied, and inexcusable racism and bigotry as in this case. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frances-burqa-ban-will-it-just-drive-muslim-woman-into-seclusion/577994/46 "2011-04-12T03:40:22Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > What if my religion requires female circumcision? Can I still enjoy my religious freedom in your country? How about child brides? Okay? Isn’t that what a burqa symbolizes, the subjugation and abuse of women? Let’s ban wedding rings, too, since they are the token that men give to ‘acquire’ their wives. :o Talk about subjugation of women! These women in question wear burqas out of choice! > [@](#): > > Personally I don’t even see it as a religious issue. It’s more like walking around in a Nazi uniform. Burqas are designed to terrorize who…? ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frances-burqa-ban-will-it-just-drive-muslim-woman-into-seclusion/577994/47 "2011-04-12T03:44:30Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > My point was that there are limitations on freedom of religion. “I support freedom of religion” doesn’t mean much when we get down to particulars. > > I’m old enough to have been punk when it first manifested, so I naturally think people should be able to wear or not wear pretty much whatever they want. But… > > The ski mask thing. I could see banning certain types of clothing, in some circumstances, just like I can see banning public nudity in places, but maybe not others. > > What about the KKK white sheet look? Should it be banned? I don’t know. Could it be banned? I think if it starts causing problems, then yes. You need to solidify your argument a little. Using this logic, then we should ban Hasidic Jews from dressing the way they do…you know…cause someone may have a _problem_. NYC does have an anti-mask law that is designed to ban the KKK white sheet. :o ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frances-burqa-ban-will-it-just-drive-muslim-woman-into-seclusion/577994/48 "2011-04-12T03:49:11Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > Yet France is not an officially Islamic country, nor has been. She may not wish to put herself in the position of being dictated to by an **alien religion**. She does not want to be dictated to by the catholic faith either. A foreign religion? Well, since France is secular, _all_ religions are foreign. (: There are 4+ million Muslims in France. Hardly a couple of weirdos down in Tejas drinkin the juice. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frances-burqa-ban-will-it-just-drive-muslim-woman-into-seclusion/577994/49 "2011-04-12T03:53:42Z")
It’s a bad law. The government can say it’s about women’s rights but it does nothing to promote them. If women are being subjugated by their male family members, the solution is not to have the government telling them how to live. That’s just changing one subjugating authority for another. It’s also a bad idea because of what I feel is the real agenda here. The government is stigmatizing a Muslim religious practice. That’s just one small step away from stigmatizing Muslims and Islam directly. This law is just pandering to xenophobia. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frances-burqa-ban-will-it-just-drive-muslim-woman-into-seclusion/577994/50 "2011-04-12T03:58:11Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > How does wearing a niqab or burqa equate to being naked? 😕 Because under neath the burkha they are completely naked. Seems very comfortable in the summer. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frances-burqa-ban-will-it-just-drive-muslim-woman-into-seclusion/577994/51 "2011-04-12T04:00:54Z")
Most burkha wearing families I know, say the decision to wear it or not ,is made by the girl at age 8. That seems too young to make a life decision to me. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frances-burqa-ban-will-it-just-drive-muslim-woman-into-seclusion/577994/52 "2011-04-12T04:01:41Z")
[QUOTE=gonzomax] Because under neath the burkha they are completely naked. Seems very comfortable in the summer. [/QUOTE] They are? Not that I’ve ever heard of (except perhaps in individual cases)…or are you kidding here? -XT ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frances-burqa-ban-will-it-just-drive-muslim-woman-into-seclusion/577994/53 "2011-04-12T04:06:51Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > They are? Not that I’ve ever heard of (except perhaps in individual cases)…or are you kidding here? > > -XT Aren’t we all naked under our clothes? ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frances-burqa-ban-will-it-just-drive-muslim-woman-into-seclusion/577994/54 "2011-04-12T04:08:24Z")
The beginning and end of this story is that the French government is simply trying to annoy Muslims. Security, women’s rights, whatever is just so much bullshit. It’s just a way to make make sure Muslims know that they are not welcome. I’m always amazed how shocked- shocked!- Europe is when their Muslim population doesn’t meld seamlessly into society and occasionally seems to have a bit of resentment. ---
**Author:** ![Submerged](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/da6949/32.png) [@Submerged](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Submerged)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frances-burqa-ban-will-it-just-drive-muslim-woman-into-seclusion/577994/55 "2011-04-12T04:14:47Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > The beginning and end of this story is that the French government is simply trying to annoy Muslims. Security, women’s rights, whatever is just so much bullshit. It’s just a way to make make sure Muslims know that they are not welcome.. Um, cite? ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frances-burqa-ban-will-it-just-drive-muslim-woman-into-seclusion/577994/56 "2011-04-12T04:47:57Z")
> [@Submerged](#): > > Um, cite? I’m sorry, do you expect **even sven** to be able to conjure up a cite with a French official declaring that these actions are just to annoy Muslims? ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frances-burqa-ban-will-it-just-drive-muslim-woman-into-seclusion/577994/57 "2011-04-12T05:39:03Z")
> [@Submerged](#): > > “How about taking back the notion of self control and placing the burden of responsibility where it belongs, on the potential offender – not the potential victim.” > > I agree 100% with the other four reasons to support the ban as well. Except that the ban that you support _does_ place the burden of responsibility on the “potential victim”. It’s the burka-wearing women who are being arrested, and presumably will be prosecuted, under the law. Now if France wants to criminalise forcing women to wear a burka against their will, I’m all for that. ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frances-burqa-ban-will-it-just-drive-muslim-woman-into-seclusion/577994/58 "2011-04-12T06:56:25Z")
> [@Oldeb](#): > > Could you manage to at least not be so blatant with your prejudice? For what it’s worth French citizens who practice Islam already make up about 10% of France. ([cite](http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/3842.htm)) Mostly such a proportion since 1945, so they are new-comers who should adapt to their country, not have their country adapt to their religion. > [@](#): > > What you don’t seem to grasp is that it’s perfectly possible to be both French and Muslim at the same time. In fact, there are about 6,000,000 people who already identify as such. Or more… \*“We are at home, France will soon belong to us. There are already 10 million of us, soon there will be 20 million, you’ll see. You will not be able to stop us from doing anything. This country is ours.” \* L’Express > [@](#): > > If you really can’t learn to not see Muslims as some scary other who turn every place they touch into a third world country there isn’t much to talk about with you. Where did I imply they were scary ? My own view is leave them alone in peace and let them leave the west alone. Mr. Joel Stein recently wrote of some not-muslims: ‘_Lyndon Johnson "had some weird relationship with Asians in which he liked both inviting them over and going over to Asia to kill them_."’ Americans feel a moral imperative for both invading muslims for their own good and lecturing Europe on how they should assimilate Islam. Some of us wish to do neither; and certainly not because it makes Americans feel virtuous. Since most of their own countries aren’t particularly splendidly governed nor shining exemplars of freedom and joy, it seems reasonable to assume this is caused partly by their culture or religion. Should they continue to expand population and have Islam convert Europe, it is scarcely likely they will increase freedom or joy. But there’s no point in being frightened of anything, since such things will either happen or not happen, and there’s nothing individuals can do about that. And what’s with the '_learn’_ ? The didactic touch is always threatening… > [@](#): > > You also seem to see the words Muslim and Arabic as interchangeable. They’re not. In fact the country with the largest Muslim population is Indonesia. I have no idea what you are trying to say here, since nowhere did I mention Arabs or Arabic. Fun fact: Pakistan is not Arabic either. > [@](#): > > Fun fact: [Most Catholic Churches in France are actually owned by the government and may be used rent free.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_France) It’s because they are have “cultural associations” and so are maintained by the State. Because France was \*historically \*a catholic nation and has signed a number of concordats with the Papacy. She is still very secular in government, and has no need to submit to the demands of any religion’s adherents. > [@CitizenPained](#): > > NYC does have an anti-mask law that is designed to ban the KKK white sheet. :o And quite right. KKK garb is designed to threaten others and to be a visible symbol of that threat. Apart from being utterly hideous. [Along with very similar clothing of latin catholicism not designed for such purpose, but equally repellent.] > [@gonzomax](#): > > Because underneath the burkha they are completely naked. Seems very comfortable in the summer. No doubt there’s burqa porn for bored Saudis… Just like there’s nun-clothing porn for some freaks. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frances-burqa-ban-will-it-just-drive-muslim-woman-into-seclusion/577994/59 "2011-04-12T08:07:52Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > Mostly such a proportion since 1945, so they are new-comers who should adapt to their country, not have their country adapt to their religion. But this is a case of France adapting to their religion (the passage of laws that didn’t exist before is clearly an action by the state and not the settlers). ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 8:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frances-burqa-ban-will-it-just-drive-muslim-woman-into-seclusion/577994/60 "2011-04-12T08:44:05Z")
> [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > But this is a case of France adapting to their religion (the passage of laws that didn’t exist before is clearly an action by the state and not the settlers). Moreover this is forgetting that Islam has long been a part of the French Republic. Remember that the conquest of Algeria dates back to early XIXth century. I have no love for the crazy bitches that take on wearing the burqua (I believe in most cases, it is not being forced upon them. And there seems to be a good number of new converts among those women, the zealotry of the recently converted…). But the anti Muslim campaign is getting more than old. Sarkozy seems utterly convinced that you cant win the country if you dont stage a conflict and make yourself appear as the winner. He’s dividing the country for nothing of value. And, I think it’s \*\*even sven \*\*that said it, it’s just a campaign, not to persecute, but \*to annoy \*Muslims. Just take them down a peg or two. Repeatedly. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frances-burqa-ban-will-it-just-drive-muslim-woman-into-seclusion/577994.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frances-burqa-ban-will-it-just-drive-muslim-woman-into-seclusion/577994.md?page=4)