# France's "burqa ban": will it just drive muslim woman into seclusion? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 11, 2011, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frances-burqa-ban-will-it-just-drive-muslim-woman-into-seclusion/577994 "2011-04-11T19:57:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Ograbme](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Ograbme](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ograbme)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frances-burqa-ban-will-it-just-drive-muslim-woman-into-seclusion/577994/121 "2011-04-13T15:05:06Z")
> [@NiceGuyJack](#): > > I still think it is very anti-social and they limit themselves in what they can do to contribute to the society in which they live. They automatically eliminate themselves from a majority of jobs. I will never understand why they would want to do that to themselves …but enough about tattoos. ---
**Author:** ![Oldeb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ea666f/32.png) [@Oldeb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oldeb)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frances-burqa-ban-will-it-just-drive-muslim-woman-into-seclusion/577994/122 "2011-04-13T17:22:54Z")
> [@NiceGuyJack](#): > > How do you know this for sure? > I would be surprised if there wasn’t at least a few of these women who are forced to wear it. > I bet you there must be at least a few who are secretly thinking “Thank God” for this law, because refusing to wear it may mean a severe beating. So you see it as French women trapped in an abusive relationship with someone who will hits them if they don’t obey. Okay. That happens. **This solution then is to punish the victim.** It’s not the abuser in that scenario that gets picked up by the police. What you’re claiming is that it’s a good solution to the problem of domestic violence to arrest the person being beaten while doing absolutely nothing to the one who is hitting them. > [@](#): > > Even if there was only one woman who now feels liberated by this law, that’s worth it. The fact is, although the majority may be wearing it as a personal choice, there is very likely a number of women forced to wear this symbol of oppression. Then those who feel they are forced to wear one can _take it off and leave._ There is no law against divorce in France. How is it different than any other situation involving an abusive spouse? And if their husband is already willing to beat his wife if she doesn’t dress exactly how he want, why is he suddenly going to change his mind if it mean _her_ getting arrested? Or is the more likely that he’s now going to forbid her to leave the house period? This “solution” to ending isolation seems designed to only _enforce a stricter form of isolation on people._ I also have a hard time accepting that it’s perfectly okay to punish 99% of a group who voluntarily choose to dress in one fashion because 1% of them feel they were forced to wear it. Why wouldn’t the better way be to give that 1% options that include not wearing one? > [@](#): > > I don’t really care one way or another what religion you are. That is absolutely a personal choice. But even if there was the remotest chance that someone is forced to wear it as a symbol of submission and oppression, then I do have a problem with it. Yes, it’s bad if any are forced into wearing it. Absolutely nobody here disagrees with that. What you don’t seem to get is that punishing the victim and then doing nothing to prevent them from receving continued abuse seems like an incredibly bad way to “help” them. Furthermore you are punishing a group of French women who are wearing one entirely voluntarily. How many innocent people is it okay to arrest to insure you helped one person? At what point do the rights of those innocents you’ve been arresting outway the benefit to that one person? > [@](#): > > None. I have never had a chance to speak to them. When I see them though, I do often want to ask. Okay, but what if they don’t want to talk to you? There is no obligation for them to talk to everyone the meet. You don’t even need a veil to close yourself off in a public space. Simple question: Would you support a ban of MP3 players on buses and trains? People wear those to keep from interacting with others. It’s intended as a clear single that you should not come up and talk to them. You’d be okay with banning those as well because they close people off from society, yes? ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frances-burqa-ban-will-it-just-drive-muslim-woman-into-seclusion/577994/123 "2011-04-13T18:45:36Z")
[QUOTE] > [@Chen019](#): > > \*\*Yeah, some people unfamiliar with history \*\*make this comparison. However, Jews were not responsible for the kind of violence against gays, threats of terrorism & subjugation of women that introducing large numbers of muslims has brought to European countries. Also, it is ironic you’d make that comparison given that Muslims are a major problem for jewish people in European countries. There has been a large increase in anti-semitic violence and it stems from these arrivals. :rolleyes: Aw, gee, I _hope_ not. I am a history teacher. I’m not saying it’s _exactly the same_ as Hitler and Poland. But the “Jewish question” wasn’t new. Look at Prussia, Mecklenburg, Spain, or France and _la question juive._ Jews didn’t assimilate. Jews subtracted from the dominant culture, or so people feared. Judaism was incompatible with a secular government. ja ja ja We’ve been hearing this since the 1700s. A North African Jew isn’t uncomfortable in France solely because of Muslim attitude. You’re fooling yourself if you think so. Some of the Islamophobic commentary does sound eerily similar to anti-Jewish sentiment. There’s no “unfamiliar with history” in that. Dare I say it’s ignorant to \*not \*recognize it. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frances-burqa-ban-will-it-just-drive-muslim-woman-into-seclusion/577994/124 "2011-04-14T00:25:09Z")
> [@Oldeb](#): > > You’re really, really not helping. And it wasn’t France that passed that ban on Shariah Law, it was Oklahoma. That law was simply redundant by repeating (more specifically) what is stated in the First Amendment. It hasn’t reduced the rights of anybody. ---
**Author:** ![Ograbme](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Ograbme](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ograbme)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frances-burqa-ban-will-it-just-drive-muslim-woman-into-seclusion/577994/125 "2011-04-14T02:45:34Z")
You know what’s antisocial is posting on an internet message board. Time to shut 'er down fellas. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frances-burqa-ban-will-it-just-drive-muslim-woman-into-seclusion/577994/126 "2011-04-14T02:58:26Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Some of the Islamophobic commentary does sound eerily similar to anti-Jewish sentiment. There’s no “unfamiliar with history” in that. Dare I say it’s ignorant to \*not \*recognize it. I’d say it’s really the same thing. The only twist is, there is a different “Other” to be feared and hated, now that it is “unacceptable” to keep the so called “Jewish question” going. Bigotry, xenophobia, fear of The Other. “We” have simply chosen a different target, a different Other, haven’t “we”. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frances-burqa-ban-will-it-just-drive-muslim-woman-into-seclusion/577994/127 "2011-04-14T03:46:00Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > That law was simply redundant by repeating (more specifically) what is stated in the First Amendment. It hasn’t reduced the rights of anybody. Sure it has. It’s reduced the rights of anyone who wants to draft a contract under Sharia and have it enforced. ---
**Author:** ![NiceGuyJack](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/niceguyjack/32/3069_2.png) [@NiceGuyJack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NiceGuyJack)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frances-burqa-ban-will-it-just-drive-muslim-woman-into-seclusion/577994/128 "2011-04-14T05:27:18Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > I can’t, I haven’t met all 500 of them. But so what ? Does the suffering of one void the suffering of the others when you rip their voluntary secret blankie away ? Do _you_ know they’re all forced to wear it ? Do my lawmakers know it ? Of course they don’t, nor do they give a shit because helping these women isn’t and has never been the purpose of this law (but that’s another topic entirely). > > There are already avenues, call centres, shelters, help groups and so forth for battered women to escape if they wish to or at least try. It’s not like oppression is the Saudi Woman’s prerogative. The burqa is not an alien or different symptom that mandates a specific, targeted “cure”. The only reason it’s being addressed _at all_ is that it bothers xenophobic French people and the zeitgeist is right for a little bit of the ol’ cultural exceptionalism. > > Fuck 'em with a Koran doused in petrol. There are a handful of cases every year where young girls are sent to relatives in the country of origin to undergo Female circumcision. The young girls are very valuable in trade as they carry a French passport and money is made in arranged marriages whether the young girl likes it or not. There are already laws against the above, but it’s not easy to enforce when the young women are either unaware or are guarded by their own family. The French revolution was not only against the King but also against the oppression of the Catholic church. There was a principle of secularism which ensured that there was a freedom of idea and expression. The revolution also ensured the equality of women. Seen in this context, I can understand how a French person might consider the burqa as a symbol of oppression which contradicts the revolutionary principles. But you may be right. It could be that the French are just using the Principles of the Republic as an excuse to forward their own xenophobic and anti-Muslim agenda. I’m not French, so can’t really speak for them. As I mentioned in a previous post, I was trying to see it from a French perspective. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frances-burqa-ban-will-it-just-drive-muslim-woman-into-seclusion/577994/129 "2011-04-14T06:38:54Z")
> [@NiceGuyJack](#): > > But you may be right. It could be that the French are just using the Principles of the Republic as an excuse to forward their own xenophobic and anti-Muslim agenda. > > I’m not French, so can’t really speak for them. As I mentioned in a previous post, I was trying to see it from a French perspective. That ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frances-burqa-ban-will-it-just-drive-muslim-woman-into-seclusion/577994/130 "2011-04-14T06:41:01Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > I’d say it’s really the same thing. The only twist is, there is a different “Other” to be feared and hated, now that it is “unacceptable” to keep the so called “Jewish question” going. Bigotry, xenophobia, fear of The Other. “We” have simply chosen a different target, a different Other, haven’t “we”. //thumbs up Yeah, you chose a different target. I mean we. I mean…they did! I mean! Dang it! Target changed. Operation Combat Islam is a go go. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frances-burqa-ban-will-it-just-drive-muslim-woman-into-seclusion/577994/131 "2011-04-14T07:45:44Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > As for the emergency room, WTF? I assume that if she was hired by the hospital, she can do her job. Why wouldn’t I go to her? Afraid she might be secretly sticking her tongue out at me? Fear that she’d send my kid down the 'Christian children for burning" chute or something? I swear, that chute has been _nothing_ but trouble ever since the Board of Trustees had it installed. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frances-burqa-ban-will-it-just-drive-muslim-woman-into-seclusion/577994/132 "2011-04-14T12:00:42Z")
> [@NiceGuyJack](#): > > The French revolution was not only against the King but also against the oppression of the Catholic church. There was a principle of secularism which ensured that there was a freedom of idea and expression. Frenchfolk may indeed see secularism as a guiding principle for their society, and that’s fine. But it is misrepresentation to present secularism as equivalent to or necessarily linked to “freedom of idea and expression.” They are distinct ideals. In this case the secularist ideal is in opposition to freedom of expression. ---
**Author:** ![NiceGuyJack](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/niceguyjack/32/3069_2.png) [@NiceGuyJack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NiceGuyJack)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frances-burqa-ban-will-it-just-drive-muslim-woman-into-seclusion/577994/133 "2011-04-14T22:10:19Z")
You know I can’t help but feel it can’t only be xenophobia and anti-Islam. Why is it that Americans seem to think there is only one side or another. Reminds me of Bush’s “Either you’re with us or against us”. No middle ground, but it does explain a government of only two parties, both of which are so similarly corrupt that there is no real difference. France has at least five major parties in parliament and a few others. I can’t imagine a government with so many parties would pass an anti-burqa law based purely on xenophobia and anti-Islam. You have to ask, “how did they come to that conclusion”? As I said, some are very likely anti-Islam, some are probably even xenophobes, but surely there are some feminists who find the burqa offensive. Not to mention the reaction to the terrorist fundamental extremist activities such as terrorism. I really don’t think there is a black and white on this issue. It is entirely gray. Like I said, I’m not French so I can’t represent. Just cursed with an open mind. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frances-burqa-ban-will-it-just-drive-muslim-woman-into-seclusion/577994/134 "2011-04-14T22:54:01Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > Frenchfolk may indeed see secularism as a guiding principle for their society, and that’s fine. But it is misrepresentation to present secularism as equivalent to or necessarily linked to “freedom of idea and expression.” They are distinct ideals. In this case the secularist ideal is in opposition to freedom of expression. Well remember, the French under Robespierre actively burnt churches while during the Paris Commune, the Archbishop of Paris was martyred. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frances-burqa-ban-will-it-just-drive-muslim-woman-into-seclusion/577994/135 "2011-04-14T23:29:15Z")
[quote=“CitizenPained, post:123, topic:577994”] > [@](#): > > Aw, gee, I _hope_ not. I am a history teacher. I’m not saying it’s _exactly the same_ as Hitler and Poland. But the “Jewish question” wasn’t new. Look at Prussia, Mecklenburg, Spain, or France and _la question juive._ Jews didn’t assimilate. Jews subtracted from the dominant culture, or so people feared. Judaism was incompatible with a secular government. ja ja ja We’ve been hearing this since the 1700s. > > A North African Jew isn’t uncomfortable in France solely because of Muslim attitude. You’re fooling yourself if you think so. > > Some of the Islamophobic commentary does sound eerily similar to anti-Jewish sentiment. There’s no “unfamiliar with history” in that. Dare I say it’s ignorant to \*not \*recognize it. Fine, but it’s just ridiculous to not question the wisdom of islamic migration to Europe because groups have previously been discriminated against. These are traditional societies and they are quite right to question whether it is in their best interests. Also, as I highlighted above, jews didn’t hold values so at odds with what are now liberal democracies. Look at attitude [surveys:](http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/12/admissions-of-illiberalism/) and the rising [anti-semitic](http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article5467624.ece) & [homophobic](http://www.eastlondonadvertiser.co.uk/news/hate_posters_attack_gays_in_east_end_1_802822)violence. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frances-burqa-ban-will-it-just-drive-muslim-woman-into-seclusion/577994/136 "2011-04-15T16:17:27Z")
> [@NiceGuyJack](#): > > I really don’t think there is a black and white on this issue. It is entirely gray. I agreed with everything you said up to this. Yes, I’m sure that plenty support the ban for reasons other than intolerance. But those reasons are not necessarily any better. The onus is on them to present their reasoning and make the argument. It’s possible for lots of people, intelligent people, to take a position that’s pretty indefensible (e.g. opposing gay marriage) ---
**Author:** ![NiceGuyJack](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/niceguyjack/32/3069_2.png) [@NiceGuyJack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NiceGuyJack)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frances-burqa-ban-will-it-just-drive-muslim-woman-into-seclusion/577994/137 "2011-04-15T17:45:01Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > I agreed with everything you said up to this. > > Yes, I’m sure that plenty support the ban for reasons other than intolerance. But those reasons are not necessarily any better. The onus is on them to present their reasoning and make the argument. > > It’s possible for lots of people, intelligent people, to take a position that’s pretty indefensible (e.g. opposing gay marriage) I agree. It’s not really an issue of anti-Islam as mush as anti-extremism. The burqa certainly represents extremism. I had drinks with a French friend of mine this evening. He has never been anti-Islam. But he was supportive of the ban. He did say that it was the extremism that the burqa represents that he was against. I know him well enough to know he isn’t anti-Islam, nor is he xenophobic, so his support of the ban is obviously not that. He was against extremism. Anyway that’s what he told me. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frances-burqa-ban-will-it-just-drive-muslim-woman-into-seclusion/577994/138 "2011-04-16T01:56:06Z")
> [@NiceGuyJack](#): > > You know I can’t help but feel it can’t only be xenophobia and anti-Islam. Why is it that Americans seem to think there is only one side or another. Reminds me of Bush’s “Either you’re with us or against us”. No middle ground, but it does explain a government of only two parties, both of which are so similarly corrupt that there is no real difference. France has at least five major parties in parliament and a few others. > I can’t imagine a government with so many parties would pass an anti-burqa law based purely on xenophobia and anti-Islam. You have to ask, “how did they come to that conclusion”? > As I said, some are very likely anti-Islam, some are probably even xenophobes, but surely there are some feminists who find the burqa offensive. Not to mention the reaction to the terrorist fundamental extremist activities such as terrorism. > I really don’t think there is a black and white on this issue. It is entirely gray. > > Like I said, I’m not French so I can’t represent. Just cursed with an open mind. Islamophobia and bigotry isn’t restricted to political affiliation. Jewish history would be a great example. (I’m not trying to Jew-rail every thread here - it just seems to be the obvious answer.) If you want to move away from religion, just look at people with disabilities. Deaf have been discriminated against for the last…forever. There are groups who actively want to see sign languages (natural languages of the deaf) die out. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frances-burqa-ban-will-it-just-drive-muslim-woman-into-seclusion/577994/139 "2011-04-16T01:59:25Z")
> [@NiceGuyJack](#): > > I agree. It’s not really an issue of anti-Islam as mush as anti-extremism. > The burqa certainly represents extremism. > I had drinks with a French friend of mine this evening. He has never been anti-Islam. But he was supportive of the ban. He did say that it was the extremism that the burqa represents that he was against. I know him well enough to know he isn’t anti-Islam, nor is he xenophobic, so his support of the ban is obviously not that. He was against extremism. Anyway that’s what he told me. Anti-extremism is another word for _fundamentalist_ Islam. It becomes anti-Islam when you forbid practices that have no negative effect on you. Hmm. Extremist Jews aren’t extremist Jews. They’re Orthodox Jews. Should we ban women from dressing a certain way or make Orthodox men shake the hands of women who aren’t their relatives or spouses? Should we ban Kashrut supervision in factories? Prohibit synagogues from being within 10 blocks for Ground Zero? Do we prohibit Focus on the Family from publishing their newsletters? Should we force Christians into pre-marital sex? Put hamburgers on the plate of every Hindu in France? ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frances-burqa-ban-will-it-just-drive-muslim-woman-into-seclusion/577994/140 "2011-04-16T02:04:36Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > Also, as I highlighted above, jews didn’t hold values so at odds with what are now liberal democracies. Are you saying that the values of Muslims are at odd with liberal democracies? What makes one democracy more liberal than another? Are you talking about ‘liberal’ domestic policy, such as welfare, same-sex marriage, abortion, public education…? Explain. What values of Muslims are at odd with\* liberal democracies\*? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frances-burqa-ban-will-it-just-drive-muslim-woman-into-seclusion/577994.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frances-burqa-ban-will-it-just-drive-muslim-woman-into-seclusion/577994.md?page=8)