# Francophone Dopers: Trillion in French? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 5, 2008, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/francophone-dopers-trillion-in-french/436335 "2008-02-05T02:25:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![pasunejen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/58956e/32.png) [@pasunejen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pasunejen)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2008, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/francophone-dopers-trillion-in-french/436335/1 "2008-02-05T02:25:21Z")
In perusing [this article](http://www.lemonde.fr/economie/article/2008/02/04/g-w-bush-presente-un-projet-budgetaire-de-plus-de-3-000-milliards-de-dollars_1007385_3234.html#ens_id=863164) in _Le Monde_ on President Bush’s new budget, I noticed that the total figure was presented in terms of thousands of billions (_2 000 milliards_). Which seemed exceedingly odd to me. But what do I know–after all, I’m reading the news there to try to bring my French back from the dead. I just checked my dictionary, and it gives no literal French translation for the English word “trillion”–maybe to avoid the mathematics discussion. [This site](http://www.french-linguistics.co.uk/tutorials/numbers/) (which I’m not entirely inclined to trust, but it’ll do for a quick Google) gives a translation to _billion_. If this is technically correct, is _Le Monde_ just avoiding it due to possible confusion with the differing ways billion/trillion/etc. are used in other languages? ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2008, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/francophone-dopers-trillion-in-french/436335/2 "2008-02-05T02:48:54Z")
My French dictionary (Compact Oxford Hachette) states that 1 000 000 is _un million_, 1 000 000 000 is _un milliard_, and 1 000 000 000 000 (10[sup]12[/sup]) is _un billion_. I believe that 1 000 000 000 000 000 (1000 _billion_, or 10[sup]15[/sup]) is _un trilliard_. This is what some people call the “long scale” of number names, which the British used to use. It goes: million, thousand million, billion, thousand billion, trillion. ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2008, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/francophone-dopers-trillion-in-french/436335/3 "2008-02-05T02:51:40Z")
What **Sunspace** said. ([Long and short scales - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_and_short_scales)) _Milliard_ is a thousand millions, and it’s usually the unit used when discussing amounts of money such as those found in national budgets. ---
**Author:** ![pasunejen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/58956e/32.png) [@pasunejen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pasunejen)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2008, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/francophone-dopers-trillion-in-french/436335/4 "2008-02-05T02:56:21Z")
I have that. What I want to know is why, since there’s a perfectly good word for trillion, is _Le Monde_ not using it, instead referring to three trillion dollars as three thousand billion? ETA: Sorry, _Hypnagogic Jerk_, somehow I missed the second half of your post. So, the tendency would be always to refer to billions for anything a billion or over in fiscal matters (using the American/English conception of a billion = milliard)? ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2008, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/francophone-dopers-trillion-in-french/436335/5 "2008-02-05T03:17:13Z")
[QUOTE=pasunejen] ETA: Sorry, _Hypnagogic Jerk_, somehow I missed the second half of your post. So, the tendency would be always to refer to billions for anything a billion or over in fiscal matters (using the American/English conception of a billion = milliard)? [/QUOTE] I guess _Le Monde_ could have talked about _deux billions de dollars_ instead of _2000 milliards de dollars_, and it wouldn’t have been inaccurate, but the phrase they used seems more natural to me. I hear about trillions of dollars quite often in English, but more rarely will I hear about _billions de dollars_ in French, possibly because many people wouldn’t know what this number means exactly, especially given the existence of both the short and long scales, while _milliard_ is well-understood. But I’m not sure what the reason is exactly. ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2008, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/francophone-dopers-trillion-in-french/436335/6 "2008-02-05T11:58:43Z")
I’m not French, but Norwegian uses the same system (the proper one ;)) and I guess it’s to do with style and habit. People are used to money being spoken of in terms of millions and milliards and have a good grasp of what that means, and while most people could tell you what a billion means, a thousand milliards is more “intuitive”. A quick google search on “2000 milliarder” vs “2 billioner” (-er is the Norwegian plural suffix) gives 3190 hits on the first, and only 1150 hits on the latter, with many of those hits being on decimal fractions (8,2 billioner). ---
**Author:** ![pasunejen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/58956e/32.png) [@pasunejen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pasunejen)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2008, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/francophone-dopers-trillion-in-french/436335/7 "2008-02-05T12:28:22Z")
Hunh. Cool, and good to know. Thanks! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Windwalker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/5e9695/32.png) [@Windwalker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Windwalker)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2008, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/francophone-dopers-trillion-in-french/436335/8 "2008-02-05T14:57:05Z")
A bit of a tangent, but do all European languages separate by thousands? As in, 1000 of the smaller unit gets a new unit name. In Chinese, you have a distinct name for: 1 (yi) 10 (shi) 100 (bai) 1,000 (qian) 10,000 (wan) 100,000,000 (yi = 100 million) I don’t know the words beyond that. It’s striking to me that Chinese needs 10,000 wan to finally get a new unit name. Is this just a Chinese (or maybe Asian) thing, or do other language families also veer from the 1,000-oriented units? ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2008, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/francophone-dopers-trillion-in-french/436335/9 "2008-02-05T15:05:01Z")
[QUOTE=naita] (the proper one ;)) [/QUOTE] This sentiment is a base lie. The only proper system is scientific notation, where you are never caught short by not knowing an arbitrary word. The only reason it is not used regularly is the appalling innumeracy of the lumpen masses. ---
**Author:** ![Cerowyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/82dd89/32.png) [@Cerowyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cerowyn)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2008, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/francophone-dopers-trillion-in-french/436335/10 "2008-02-05T16:13:11Z")
[QUOTE=Windwalker] Is this just a Chinese (or maybe Asian) thing, or do other language families also veer from the 1,000-oriented units? [/QUOTE] Unsurprisingly, Japanese (obviously influenced by Chinese counting) has a similar counting system: 1 - ichi 10 - jū 100 - hyaku 1 000 - sen 10 000 - man 100 000 000 - ichioku (literaly _1 oku_) 1 000 000 000 000 - itchō (literally _1 chō_) IIRC, Hindi and related languages have a counting system that’s quite different from the conventions used in the West. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2008, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/francophone-dopers-trillion-in-french/436335/11 "2008-02-05T17:26:47Z")
I seem to recall being taught that it was _mil de milliards_, or some such. But my French was taught by Francophone Africans. ---
**Author:** ![jovan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/0ea827/32.png) [@jovan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jovan)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2008, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/francophone-dopers-trillion-in-french/436335/12 "2008-02-06T02:33:30Z")
[QUOTE=Chefguy] I seem to recall being taught that it was _mil de milliards_, or some such. But my French was taught by Francophone Africans. [/QUOTE] “Mil” is archaic, especially when it’s not used in dates and “de” is not necessary. _Mille milliards_ (_de mille sabords!_) is the correct expression. I should note that historically, there is some confusion as to the definition of “billion” in French. While the current accepted meaning is 10^12, the _Trésor de la langue_ dictionary gives the definition as either synonymous with _milliard_ or as a million millions. The origin of the confusion is that until the 18th century, numbers were organized in groups of six digits. _Million_ covered numbers with 7 to 12 digits. The _bi-_ prefix indicates that a _billion_ equals a million to the power of two. However, the system was changed to split the numbers in groups of 3 digits, which lead to a _million_ = 10^6, a _billion_ = 10^9, and a _trillion_ = 10^12. These two counting systems are known as the _echelle longue_ and _échelle courte._ [This page has a chart](http://www.miakinen.net/vrac/nombres) that outlines the two systems. ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2008, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/francophone-dopers-trillion-in-french/436335/13 "2008-02-06T03:26:43Z")
[QUOTE=jovan] [This page has a chart](http://www.miakinen.net/vrac/nombres) that outlines the two systems. [/QUOTE] Interesting page. It clarifies quite a bit for me.