# Frankenfood

**URL:** <https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frankenfood/71507>\
**Category:** Great Debates\
**Created:** [July 6, 2001, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frankenfood/71507 "2001-07-06T17:56:13Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 7\
**Page:** 5

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**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\
**Post date:** [July 14, 2001, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frankenfood/71507/81 "2001-07-14T21:47:13Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Collounsbury \*  
> \*\*(a) The terminator trait research has been abandoned, officially speaking. Bad publicity killed commercialization. I can’t speak to possible continued research on an unofficial basis but there are not commercialized terminator traits to the best of my knowledge.

\*\*

Can you direct me to some details on how the terminator gene worked?

> [@](#):
>
> \*\*  
> (b) gene guns do not involved actual bullets although they do involve projecting impregnated (with target dna) micro materials with great force, rather like a gun.

\*\*

Back when the gene gun was invented, around 1990, the guns shot a .22 bullet through a glass panel, so that the shards of DNA vector-coated glass would shoot the dna into cells.

> [@](#):
>
> \*\*  
> (e) as for insertion, although the process of insertion is relatively random (that depends on a number of factors and on specifics in the method used etc, all kinds of stuff which is not discussable by me), post-insertion you can be bloody well sure that we do figure where in the genome we have expression.

\*\*

I’m not sure I understand you. You don’t have “expression” in the genome; genes are expressed in the proteome. And do companies actually locate the gene in the plant genome? In what sense do they “locate” it in a genome which hasn’t been sequenced yet?

> [@](#):
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> \*\*  
> Quite important insofar as different types of expression lead to different levels of BT expression, issues which are presently subject to dispute in many different fora.  
> \*\*

So far as I know, the inserted gene would be inserted with its own promoter. Is this not the case?

-Ben

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**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\
**Post date:** [July 14, 2001, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frankenfood/71507/82 "2001-07-14T23:34:58Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Ben \*  
> **So first you talk about strains being driven to extinction- but then you’re not talking about 100% contamination “at all”?**

If the biotech companies _were_ to deliberately but surreptitiously wage war against non-GM varieties (fanciful notion I suppose, but not impossible), their goal would be extinction, but this wouldn’t necessarily have to involve 100% contamination in a single generation.

> [@](#):
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> \*\*You’re assuming that the terminator gene is a dominant negative mutation. Cite?

\*\*You’ve got me there, I’m no geneticist, it was an assumption which I will have to admit may be unsound.

> [@](#):
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> \*\*Before terminator technology was developed, there were probably people who said it was a logical impossibility to create and sell crop that didn’t have viable seeds.

\*\*Ummmm, OK, I suppose they could fiddle with it a bit more and obviate the need for fertilisation, heck why not?

> [@](#):
>
> \*\*
> 
> > [@](#):
> >
> > \*\*Besides, unless there’s a pressiing commercial reason for the biotech companies to do something like that, they simply won’t bother.
> 
> \*\*
> 
> Then why bother discussing this? Unless there is (for example) no pressing commercial reason to give up their entire livelihood, they won’t do that either.

\*\*I’m only trying to point out that their motivation may be short-term profit at the expense of proper restraint; if it comes down to a decision between something that’s profitable and risky (though not financially risky) or something that’s less profitable and much safer, I wonder which one prevails.

> [@](#):
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> \*\*I didn’t mean to put words in your mouth. It’s just that I get the feeling that your position is that you (among other people) have a vague opposition to genetically modified food, and if anyone tries to get specific about how to resolve specific problems, you keep finding ways to make the solutions into an even worse problem. If nothing else, you fall back on “the biotech companies are driven purely by profit and will never implement any of your solutions.” But the fact is that they’ll implement pollen-free corn a lot faster than they will toss out the terminator technology.

\*\*Hmmmm, don’t misjudge me, but do understand that I’m human, I have fears which can’t simply be dismissed with a wave of the hand, or by reassuring me that I’m merely ignorant and should pipe down(not you, but you know what I mean). In any case, there are a number of GM projects that I think have yielded wonderful results, one of these was to engineer bananas to include a vaccine that was too volatile to be transported to remote regions by normal means, but was quite stable in the fruit; in this case, any risks are outweighed by the potential good, but when it comes to producing strains of plants that are dependant on one company’s trigger chemicals simply to complete their life cycles, and this is to exert (what I feel to be) excessive commercial pressure on growers, I’m less sympathetic.

> [@](#):
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> \*\*
> 
> > [@](#):
> >
> > \*\*  
> > I have absolutely no objection to GM as long as we don’t have to rush blindly into it, I don’t believe we can trust the biotech firms themselves to give us the full truth, anymore than we could trust the tobacco industry twenty years ago to tell us about the dangers of smoking, they have a vested interest in concealing any negative information. \*\*
> 
> I completely agree- I don’t think we can trust any corporation to give us the full truth, and we shouldn’t rush blindly into anything. But it seems to me that you almost feel that the untrustworthiness of biotech companies is not an obstacle to be navigated so much as an issue in and of itself, for its own sake. And thus if I present ways that we can protect ourselves from corporate greed, you reject my solutions out of hand, even if doing so contradicts your own opinions.\*\*

\*\*  
[/quote]  
Do I? try me.

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**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\
**Post date:** [July 15, 2001, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frankenfood/71507/83 "2001-07-15T01:51:09Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> ## quote:
> 
> In fact, the odds were so much against it that there was no contingency plan. And the Chernobyl plant had safety systems to prevent a meltdown.
> 
> * * *
> 
> Chernobyl may have been a pretty good nuclear plant when it opened. By the time of the meltdown is was underfunded and understaffed and is a poor example of nuclear power at work.

But that, of course, is precisely my point, my friend. I’m not so wrried about the vanguard f GM folks, the cautious new ones advancing the technology although they can screw up, too). It’s the ones who come later, running GM companis that can’t afford the costs of impact statements, or who dont care. Most of the world is run by second-stringers.

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**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\
**Post date:** [July 15, 2001, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frankenfood/71507/84 "2001-07-15T05:02:23Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Mangetout \*  
> \*\*If the biotech companies _were_ to deliberately but surreptitiously wage war against non-GM varieties (fanciful notion I suppose, but not impossible), their goal would be extinction, but this wouldn’t necessarily have to involve 100% contamination in a single generation.

\*\*

Please address my argument. How is 10% contamination in one generation going to cause the terminator strain to supplant non-terminator crops when the terminator crops cannot reproduce themselves?

> [@](#):
>
> \*\*  
> You’ve got me there, I’m no geneticist, it was an assumption which I will have to admit may be unsound.

\*\*

It seems to me that you’re making a lot of assumptions about the terminator gene. Can you direct me to any information at all about how it works? The idea that crops which cannot reproduce themselves could outbreed normal crops to the point of extinction is, as I pointed out earlier, ludicrous on the face of it. If there’s something hidden in the works which would make it possible after all, I’d like to hear about it.

> [@](#):
>
> \*\*I’m only trying to point out that their motivation may be short-term profit at the expense of proper restraint; if it comes down to a decision between something that’s profitable and risky (though not financially risky) or something that’s less profitable and much safer, I wonder which one prevails.

\*\*

Please address my argument. We both suggest restraints on GM crops, but my suggestions are the only ones that you reject on the grounds that the companies will choose profit over safety. Why?

> [@](#):
>
> \*\*  
> and this is to exert (what I feel to be) excessive commercial pressure on growers, I’m less sympathetic.

\*\*

Do you feel that software companies should not offer one-year licenses? Should they instead demand that all their customers pay, up front, many times the one-year rate for a permanent license?

> [@](#):
>
> \*\*
> 
> > [@](#):
> >
> > \*\*  
> > And thus if I present ways that we can protect ourselves from corporate greed, you reject my solutions out of hand, even if doing so contradicts your own opinions.\*\*
> 
> Do I? try me. \*\*

Given that twice in this post I’ve had to tell you to actually address my argument, then yes, I do think I have reason to feel that you reject my solutions out of hand.

-Ben

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\
**Post date:** [July 15, 2001, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frankenfood/71507/85 "2001-07-15T22:11:31Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Ben \*  
> \*\*Given that twice in this post I’ve had to tell you to actually address my argument, then yes, I do think I have reason to feel that you reject my solutions out of hand.
> 
> -Ben \*\*

OK, you win.

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**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\
**Post date:** [July 16, 2001, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frankenfood/71507/86 "2001-07-16T04:37:07Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Mangetout \*  
> \*\*OK, you win. \*\*

So if I complain that you’re dismissing my arguments out of hand, not only do you dismiss my complaint, but you do so with the implication that I’m just out to score points.

How, exactly, have I won?

-Ben

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\
**Post date:** [July 16, 2001, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frankenfood/71507/87 "2001-07-16T07:31:04Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Ben \*  
> \*\*
> 
> > [@](#):
> >
> > \*Originally posted by Mangetout \*  
> > \*\*OK, you win. \*\*
> 
> So if I complain that you’re dismissing my arguments out of hand, not only do you dismiss my complaint, but you do so with the implication that I’m just out to score points.
> 
> How, exactly, have I won?
> 
> -Ben \*\*

You’ve demonstrated that I will need to do some proper research before entering into an argument like this one.

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