# FrankenWheat **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 2, 2013, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frankenwheat/659949 "2013-06-02T14:47:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frankenwheat/659949/41 "2013-06-03T15:00:07Z")
celiac’s disease and gluten intolerance is a myth. i work for \*big wheat \*and our studies show it. Eat wheat!!! ---
**Author:** ![thicksantorum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/65b543/32.png) [@thicksantorum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thicksantorum)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frankenwheat/659949/42 "2013-06-03T15:26:25Z")
> [@dataguy](#): > > You are correct. The study does not conclude this. It does, however conclude that diet soda consumption is strongly correlated with obesity in ways that the researchers admit are not well understood. My original point was that it does matter what you eat, not just the caloric content,. Diet soda consumption is correlated with obesity because landwhales have a habit of ordering 3 Baconators, 5 large fries, some chili, and a Diet Coke, then patting themselves on the back because they think they’re being healthy. Diet soda consumption is an effect of obesity, not a cause. There’s a huge correlation between nicotine gum chewing and lung cancer, as well, for the same reason. ---
**Author:** ![April\_R](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@April\_R](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/April_R)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frankenwheat/659949/43 "2013-06-03T15:29:50Z")
Landwhales? ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frankenwheat/659949/44 "2013-06-03T15:30:02Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > That’s known as [mutation breeding](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutation_breeding), not [GMO](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetically_modified_food). GMO’s are created by [genetic engineering](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_engineering), which is “the direct manipulation of an organism’s genome using biotechnology…New DNA may be inserted in the host genome by first isolating and copying the genetic material of interest using molecular cloning methods to generate a DNA sequence, or by synthesizing the DNA, and then inserting this construct into the host organism. Genes may be removed, or “knocked out”, using a nuclease. Gene targeting is a different technique that uses homologous recombination to change an endogenous gene, and can be used to delete a gene, remove exons, add a gene, or introduce point mutations.” > > Mutation breeding simply speeds up the natural process, and while it may lead to unexpected and concerning results for the environment, doesn’t cause the \*same \*concerns among educated people as genetic engineering, which really is essentially hacking DNA. My point was that dataguy responded to a post regarding the altered state of our ordinary wheat with an analogy comparing hybridization and GM with the approved API and hacking. Since hybridization is only part of how ordinary wheat has been altered, the analogy was flawed. I know what genetic modification is, and haven’t claimed it includes mutation breeding. ---
**Author:** ![Lightlystarched](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Lightlystarched](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightlystarched)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frankenwheat/659949/45 "2013-06-03T15:30:25Z")
> [@thicksantorum](#): > > Appetite is irrelevant … Totally!!! I tell this to people all the time. Want to get more done? Stop sleeping. You can totally ignore those feelings that your body sends. Its easy, and no repercussions. Just lots and lots of extra time! ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frankenwheat/659949/46 "2013-06-03T15:32:04Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > I’m not sure what you’re saying. A gluten/wheat free diet is only as expensive as you want to make it. All it is is cutting \*out \*gluten/wheat. No one says you have to buy the gluten free bread or gluten free pizza (which do indeed cost a couple of dollars more than the wheat counterparts, 'cause tapioca and quinoa and other starches used aren’t subsidized like wheat are.) Don’t want to spend extra money? Don’t buy bread. Have your sandwich on a tortilla, or between two slices of eggplant, or have it as a chef’s salad instead. Have rice or potatoes if you crave white starch, instead of noodles. These specialty products are nice because people like bread, and it’s nice to have the option of gluten free bread. But you’re not going to be deficient in anything if you’re eating vegetables and fruits and nuts and meat and dairy - all of which are perfectly gluten free by nature. You aren’t thinking this through. All of your choices are things that cost more than bread and you would normally not have to buy if you could eat bread. Bread, if you get it late, is still as low as $0.60 a loaf. Plus most “poor people foods” contain gluten or are manufactured on shared equipment that processes gluten. And, since current law does not require them to list possible contamination from shared equipment, you have to be wary of any food that does not mention manufacturing problems. (Did you know you can’t eat oatmeal, for example? The current theory is that it is from cross contamination _in the field_. So you have to get special oatmeal that is grown in conditions to prevent that.) I’m not saying gluten free foods are anywhere near the most expensive things in the world, but your are delusional if you think that you can afford the same amount of food. The Canadian government even recognizes this and [helps subsidize](http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/ndvdls/tpcs/ncm-tx/rtrn/cmpltng/ddctns/lns300-350/330/clc-eng.html) the foods for celiac sufferers as part of universal health care. I think you just haven’t had to deal with it because your daughter’s allergies don’t quite require a truly gluten-free diet. One of my pet peeves are people who think they are on a gluten free diet who can’t understand why the real thing is more expensive. I absolutely hate how careful I have to be–it stirs up OCD tendencies that I have worked hard to break. And then you get ridiculed for having to do that much work just to be able to find foods you can afford. I’ve actually been **losing** weight since I switched, as I can’t afford as many calories as before. I’ve even paid a little less rent sometimes just because I was so hungry and got food instead. ---
**Author:** ![ethelbert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/958977/32.png) [@ethelbert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ethelbert)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frankenwheat/659949/47 "2013-06-03T15:32:42Z")
I found [this article](http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/03/magazine/the-boy-with-a-thorn-in-his-joints.html?pagewanted=all)in the NY Times to be interesting. It discusses the possibility that wheat and gluten problems can be traced to “leaky gut syndrome”, which can sometimes be attributed to overuse of antibiotics, disturbing the balance of organisms in the gut. Basically what happens (so they theorize) is that gluten is allowed to migrate outside the gut where it is attacked by the body which uses inflammation as its weapon. Avoiding gluten is a useful tool in this context, but they raise the possibility that restoring the organisms in the gut would also help. I have no expertise with which to criticize this hypothesis, but I did find it compelling. ---
**Author:** ![April\_R](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@April\_R](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/April_R)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frankenwheat/659949/48 "2013-06-03T16:05:22Z")
I have a friend who swears by probiotics. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frankenwheat/659949/49 "2013-06-03T16:35:18Z")
You raise some good points, **BigT**. However, we did do very strict gluten free with her for 3 years on (US) food stamps and food pantries, so yes, I do know how it is. She just didn’t eat a lot of processed foods or grains except rice. Once a week we’d spend the food stamps for the gf bread and eat beans instead of meat. And I cooked a lot. Fresh whole foods you make at home don’t risk cross contamination if you keep a clean kitchen. Is it cheap and easy and fast? No. As always, pick two - you can’t have all three. While the law doesn’t mandate cross contamination potential on labels, most of the products I see do it voluntarily now for soy, wheat and nuts. Do you have Aldi near you? Their labels are great, and their food cheap. And they keep bringing in new (labeled) gluten free processed foods every week which are much less expensive than the ones at the supermarket. I’m glad to hear Canada subsidizes food for people with Celiac. That’s pretty awesome. ---
**Author:** ![dataguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/eada6e/32.png) [@dataguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dataguy)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frankenwheat/659949/50 "2013-06-03T16:47:01Z")
> [@naita](#): > > My point was that dataguy responded to a post regarding the altered state of our ordinary wheat with an analogy comparing hybridization and GM with the approved API and hacking. Since hybridization is only part of how ordinary wheat has been altered, the analogy was flawed. > > I know what genetic modification is, and haven’t claimed it includes mutation breeding. An analogy doesn’t have to be perfect to be useful. However, in response to your earlier question, I stated that I consider “mutation breeding” to also be a “non-API” method, so I don’t consider the analogy flawed because it didn’t originally address this method. ---
**Author:** ![WarmNPrickly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d78d45/32.png) [@WarmNPrickly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WarmNPrickly)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frankenwheat/659949/51 "2013-06-03T17:38:23Z")
> [@Surreal](#): > > Not really genetically engineered but certainly genetically modified. Roughly 95% of all of the wheat consumed in the world today is from the dwarf species Triticum aestivum which was developed using physical (X-rays, gamma rays) and chemical mutagenic techniques. Can you provide a cite for this. The best I can find is that it is derived from Norin 10 a semi-dwarf wheat hybrid. I haven’t found any indication of mutagenic techniques. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frankenwheat/659949/52 "2013-06-03T18:18:53Z")
> [@GomiBoy](#): > > Outside of the GM argument, there is a strong argument that the processes making wheat into flour are simply awful; stories of the Chorley-Wood process in the UK making bread from something fulfilling and good for you into something actually bad for you (basically filling but empty calories with all the bad left in and all the good taken out) are quite scary. OK, I just [googled](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chorleywood_bread_process) to find the process - in a nutshell they take a lower protein wheat [like for cake flour] and process it by adding ascorbic acid [vit C] fat yeast and whiping the fuck out of it in a giant sealed temperature controled blender. To be honest, other than being mechanically ‘kneaded’ by superman at maximum speed, they are not taking anything out of the bread, although they use a lower protein flour that would be more suitable for cakes. They could modify this by adding protein, but I don’t see that as really an issue. I will make the assumption that the flour is ‘enriched’ by adding the same stuff to it that is added to regular flour. It would be more or less the same as making a loaf of bread entirely processed by a kitchenaid, and popped into the bread tin for baking and not bothering to knead by hand, and using cake flour. ---
**Author:** ![Surreal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eada6e/32.png) [@Surreal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Surreal)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frankenwheat/659949/53 "2013-06-03T19:55:46Z")
> [@WarmNPrickly](#): > > Can you provide a cite for this. The best I can find is that it is derived from Norin 10 a semi-dwarf wheat hybrid. I haven’t found any indication of mutagenic techniques. > **[Advances in Agronomy](https://books.google.com/books?id=3a71qa9PTTAC&pg=PA348&lpg=PA348&dq=%22Triticum%2Baestivum%22%2B%22mutation%2Bbreeding%22&source=bl&ots=6vkPdD8Fws&sig=zrZmgBsAOs9uOjtKFF1ezLcWvlw&hl=en&sa=X&ei=r_GsUY7sHajgyQHW-oCYCg&ved=0CEgQ6AEwBjgK#v=onepage&q=%22Triticum%20aestivum%22%20%22mutation%20breeding%22&f=false)** > > Advances in Agronomy > [@](#): > > "Early attempts by Pinthus (1972) in utilizing mutation breeding resulted in the selection of wheat (Triticum aestivum L.) mutants with increased seedling resistance to herbicide… ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frankenwheat/659949/54 "2013-06-03T21:01:27Z")
> [@Surreal](#): > > [Advances in Agronomy - Google Books](http://books.google.com/books?id=3a71qa9PTTAC&pg=PA348&lpg=PA348&dq=%22Triticum+aestivum%22+%22mutation+breeding%22&source=bl&ots=6vkPdD8Fws&sig=zrZmgBsAOs9uOjtKFF1ezLcWvlw&hl=en&sa=X&ei=r_GsUY7sHajgyQHW-oCYCg&ved=0CEgQ6AEwBjgK#v=onepage&q=%22Triticum%20aestivum%22%20%22mutation%20breeding%22&f=false) I still don’t see any reference that the mutagenically-modified _Triticum aestivum_ varieties are 95% of the wheat consumed today. I did find references that said that _Triticum aestivum_ is 95% of the wheat consumed, the other kinds being for pasta and semolina, but that makes me think that _Triticum aestivum_ just refers to the common domesticated wheat crop, not necessarily the genetically modified (by chemicals/radiation) kind. ---
**Author:** ![GomiBoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@GomiBoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GomiBoy)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2013, 9:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frankenwheat/659949/55 "2013-06-04T09:48:50Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > OK, I just [googled](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chorleywood_bread_process) to find the process - in a nutshell they take a lower protein wheat [like for cake flour] and process it by adding ascorbic acid [vit C] fat yeast and whiping the fuck out of it in a giant sealed temperature controled blender. To be honest, other than being mechanically ‘kneaded’ by superman at maximum speed, they are not taking anything out of the bread, although they use a lower protein flour that would be more suitable for cakes. They could modify this by adding protein, but I don’t see that as really an issue. I will make the assumption that the flour is ‘enriched’ by adding the same stuff to it that is added to regular flour. > > It would be more or less the same as making a loaf of bread entirely processed by a kitchenaid, and popped into the bread tin for baking and not bothering to knead by hand, and using cake flour. All fine, except the way in which the low-quality flour is made is terrible too - they basically remove all the goodness (all the bad-coloured grains), bleach the hell out of it, and leave nothing but starch and gluten, send it through hot rollers that partially cook the grain further removing the good bits, then whip the fuck out of it in the Chorley-Wood process to make bread that is basically diabetes-inducing crap. Whereas if you use good flour, preferably whole-grain, you get all kinds of good nutrients and a decent dose of protein, and making something that is both low-GI and actually good for you rather than something completely rubbish. The Chorley-Wood process isn’t so bad, it’s the ingredients that go into it to make white bread that make it so much worse. ---
**Author:** ![FlyingDragonFan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c89c15/32.png) [@FlyingDragonFan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlyingDragonFan)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2013, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frankenwheat/659949/56 "2013-06-04T13:55:00Z")
> [@GomiBoy](#): > > All fine, except the way in which the low-quality flour is made is terrible too - they basically remove all the goodness (all the bad-coloured grains), bleach the hell out of it, and leave nothing but starch and gluten, send it through hot rollers that partially cook the grain further removing the good bits, then whip the fuck out of it in the Chorley-Wood process to make bread that is basically diabetes-inducing crap. Exactly. “Enriched” flour isn’t \*more \*healthy, it’s enriched to try to add back in the nutrients that have already been lost during processing. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2013, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frankenwheat/659949/57 "2013-06-04T17:50:07Z")
> [@GomiBoy](#): > > All fine, except the way in which the low-quality flour is made is terrible too - they basically remove all the goodness (all the bad-coloured grains), bleach the hell out of it, and leave nothing but starch and gluten, send it through hot rollers that partially cook the grain further removing the good bits, then whip the fuck out of it in the Chorley-Wood process to make bread that is basically diabetes-inducing crap. > > Whereas if you use good flour, preferably whole-grain, you get all kinds of good nutrients and a decent dose of protein, and making something that is both low-GI and actually good for you rather than something completely rubbish. > > The Chorley-Wood process isn’t so bad, it’s the ingredients that go into it to make white bread that make it so much worse. “Bad colored grains”? You do realize that wheat smut [a potentially toxic fungal infestation in wheat, with correlations to other grain fungi like _ergot_] discolors grains and is a cracking good reason to remove them from the grind? And the manufacturers that make the flour are generally not the ones who are baking the bread? The bakers buy it in carloads and bake with it, the mills are the ones producing the soft wheat flour. ---
**Author:** ![GomiBoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@GomiBoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GomiBoy)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2013, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frankenwheat/659949/58 "2013-06-05T10:34:01Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > “Bad colored grains”? > > You do realize that wheat smut [a potentially toxic fungal infestation in wheat, with correlations to other grain fungi like _ergot_] discolors grains and is a cracking good reason to remove them from the grind? > > And the manufacturers that make the flour are generally not the ones who are baking the bread? The bakers buy it in carloads and bake with it, the mills are the ones producing the soft wheat flour. I’m not talking about smut, I’m talking about anything but pure white grains. Problem is, the pure white grains aren’t where the good nutrition comes from. The problem is the whole chain IMO: 1. Farmers grow the wheat. They select varieties that are resistant to disease and pests, but not necessarily the best nutritional value 2. Millers then make the flour using industrial processes that further remove the nutritional bits in grain to make it appealing to consumers. The process itself also destroys some of the nutritional value of the grain through heat and other processes including bleaching 3. Bakers buy the flour. They don’t necessarily buy what’s nutritionally best for their customers, but what they know they can sell and white plain bread sells 4. Then they use industrial processes to make the bread that further remove good nutritional elements from the bread. The end result is crap, plain and simple, but most people don’t know any better and / or don’t have the money (or are willing to spend the money) to buy better, ore the time to make their own and get the better flour from suppliers (my sourdough bread takes a day and a half; most of it is just letting the dough rise, but still) so it goes on and on. And the few who care can’t get high-quality flour easily either - I have to seek out suppliers for my flour that are few and far between (and dying out!) to make nutritionally good bread, as most of the flour bought in supermarkets is the same processed crap that the professional bakers get. You see the same thing with white rice, which is actually kind of bad for you compared to brown rice or wild rice. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frankenwheat/659949.md?page=2)