# Franklin Graham: The Muslim Brotherhood, with Obama's complicity, has infiltrated U.S. gov't **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 23, 2011, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/franklin-graham-the-muslim-brotherhood-with-obamas-complicity-has-infiltrated-u-s-govt/575737 "2011-03-23T17:12:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/franklin-graham-the-muslim-brotherhood-with-obamas-complicity-has-infiltrated-u-s-govt/575737/41 "2011-03-25T16:22:03Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > I’m not interested at all. > > Digging stuff out from the dustbin of history and making a bogey man out of dead people is not something worth my while. It simply is not relevant. [Okay.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DyD3hZZR6w) ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/franklin-graham-the-muslim-brotherhood-with-obamas-complicity-has-infiltrated-u-s-govt/575737/42 "2011-03-25T17:22:15Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > [Okay.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DyD3hZZR6w) :rolleyes: The only place Qutb comes into discussion is Western media by paid pundits. How well Western media and pundits keep an eye on the ball can be measured by the fact that NO ONE predicted the wave of popular uprising in ME. Hello!? NO ONE! Yet, people still go these “sources” for more. And they get cited and discussed and used as a reference. Even though it has been proved that their value is nil. Incredible. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/franklin-graham-the-muslim-brotherhood-with-obamas-complicity-has-infiltrated-u-s-govt/575737/43 "2011-03-25T18:12:10Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > :rolleyes: > > The only place Qutb comes into discussion is Western media by paid pundits. How well Western media and pundits keep an eye on the ball can be measured by the fact that NO ONE predicted the wave of popular uprising in ME. > > Hello!? NO ONE! > > Yet, people still go these “sources” for more. And they get cited and discussed and used as a reference. Even though it has been proved that their value is nil. > > Incredible. Ah, my bad and my apologies, that was the wrong link. I wasn’t being funny but apparently didn’t cut the right link (that one was from a YouTube thread). This is how it should have read: [Really?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13609635&postcount=20) In other words, if you’re “not interested at all” because “Digging stuff out from the dustbin of history and making a bogey man out of dead people is not something worth my while. It simply is not relevant.”, then why ask for a cite when you 1- Didn’t think it was relevant to begin with 2- Weren’t going to look it up anyway 3- Didn’t really care ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/franklin-graham-the-muslim-brotherhood-with-obamas-complicity-has-infiltrated-u-s-govt/575737/44 "2011-03-25T18:55:12Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > In other words, if you’re “not interested at all” because “Digging stuff out from the dustbin of history and making a bogey man out of dead people is not something worth my while. It simply is not relevant.”, then why ask for a cite when you > 1- Didn’t think it was relevant to begin with > 2- Weren’t going to look it up anyway > 3- Didn’t really care Oh, yes, the prickly game of “I posted a cite, therefore I must be right!” Well, I was asking for a cite re: Advocates of violent revolution and fierce retribution for non compliers with Islam Cite posted in no way demonstrates that. In fact, common understanding is that leadership of MB in Egypt clearly distanced itself from Qutb and his ideas. When you come back with a cite that demonstrates your claim, then, my interest might rise a notch. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/franklin-graham-the-muslim-brotherhood-with-obamas-complicity-has-infiltrated-u-s-govt/575737/45 "2011-03-25T19:01:04Z")
[QUOTE=newcomer] Cite posted in no way demonstrates that. In fact, common understanding is that leadership of MB in Egypt clearly distanced itself from Qutb and his ideas. When you come back with a cite that demonstrates your claim, then, my interest might rise a notch. [/QUOTE] It also didn’t address the role of Mormon missionaries in the colonization of Hawaii, because _that’s not what you asked for a cite about_. You asked a cite that Qutb proposed violent revolution which is pretty much any remotely reliable source there is about Qutb. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/franklin-graham-the-muslim-brotherhood-with-obamas-complicity-has-infiltrated-u-s-govt/575737/46 "2011-03-25T19:01:46Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > Oh, yes, the prickly game of “I posted a cite, therefore I must be right!” > > Well, I was asking for a cite re: Advocates of violent revolution and fierce retribution for non compliers with Islam > > Cite posted in no way demonstrates that. In fact, common understanding is that leadership of MB in Egypt clearly distanced itself from Qutb and his ideas. When you come back with a cite that demonstrates your claim, then, my interest might rise a notch. The quote you asked for a cite on was specifically about Qutb. > [@wrraq](#): > > Then I would respectfully say that you didn’t read up on them that well. Sayyid Qutb and Hassan Al Banna were hardly simply Islamic versions of Billy Graham. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/franklin-graham-the-muslim-brotherhood-with-obamas-complicity-has-infiltrated-u-s-govt/575737/47 "2011-03-25T19:04:33Z")
You have to understand that Newcomer is a very, very stupid person. I mean, the fact that he’s a 9/11 Truther who thinks that the Mossad was involved should tell you enough, but still. If you provide someone giving an analysis of history that he can’t factually refute, he’ll call them a pundit and say that they shouldn’t be listened to. If you provide cites and facts showing that his claim are wrong? Well, then he’ll demand pundits: > [@Actual forums user "RedFury" does not like Jews](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/actual-forums-user-redfury-does-not-like-jews/568217/317): > > Underlined item 3: See Item 2. Just a note to the author, repetition won’t make it right. As challenged, find me one commentator who gets same conclusion (but you won’t Google because even the Google cannot make stuff up). ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/franklin-graham-the-muslim-brotherhood-with-obamas-complicity-has-infiltrated-u-s-govt/575737/48 "2011-03-25T19:49:26Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > The quote you asked for a cite on was specifically about Qutb. Is it your claim that MB=Qutb? I did say that at the time of Qutb writings MB leadership distnced itself from his ideas. Thus, irrelevant. So, what are we discussing now - Qutb or MB? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/franklin-graham-the-muslim-brotherhood-with-obamas-complicity-has-infiltrated-u-s-govt/575737/49 "2011-03-25T20:21:39Z")
Careful… I’m about to provide actual facts and thereby… activate the pseudocomplexity machine!!! > [@newcomer](#): > > I did say that at the time of Qutb writings MB leadership distnced itself from his ideas. First off, this is simply either profound ignorance or dishonesty. Qutb was not only a leader in the MB, he was in charge of writing its propaganda. Things are also nowhere near as simple (or “pseudosimple” if you prefer) as newcomer paints them, today. [ > [@](#): > > No, the Brotherhood claims its dalliance with revolutionary activity has definitively ended. The movement’s ideologist for a more combative path, Sayyid Qutb, was executed in 1966. When the Brotherhood climbed back to viability in the 1970s and 1980s after years of harsh repression, it left violent ideas behind in the grave with him. Or so it says. Is it telling the truth? Largely, yes. The Brotherhood has renounced violence. But it cannot bring itself to bury Qutb with it. The respectful treatment of Qutb is a worrying sign, but in a far more subtle way than is usually understood. > […] > The Brotherhood cannot change its distant history. But not all the doubts are strictly historical in nature; some stem from the Brotherhood’s current discourse. First and foremost in this regard is the way the Brotherhood handles Qutb himself. The movement disavows violence and revolution but insists on retaining Sayyid Qutb within its pantheon and on the reading lists for its members. What is Qutb doing there? He was hardly one to restrict his efforts to running in crooked elections. Instead, Qutb denounced all existing societies and regimes as non-Islamic. Egypt’s secular (in Qutb’s eyes), socialist, and nationalist regime therefore did fall in the same category as Israel. Qutb sought to build a small cadre of Muslims who would serve as a vanguard for building a new, truly Islamic society. ]([Carnegie Endowment for International Peace | Carnegie Endowment for International Peace](http://www.carnegieendowment.org/publications/index.cfm?fa=view&id=40821)) ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/franklin-graham-the-muslim-brotherhood-with-obamas-complicity-has-infiltrated-u-s-govt/575737/50 "2011-03-25T21:46:46Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > Is it your claim that MB=Qutb? > > I did say that at the time of Qutb writings MB leadership distnced itself from his ideas. Thus, irrelevant. No you didn’t. You asked for a cite regarding Qutb. THen someone gave you one and _then_ you said Qutb was irrelevant. Which caused **Sampiro** to ask why you bothered requesting the cite in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2011, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/franklin-graham-the-muslim-brotherhood-with-obamas-complicity-has-infiltrated-u-s-govt/575737/51 "2011-03-26T00:35:41Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > No you didn’t. You asked for a cite regarding Qutb. THen someone gave you one and _then_ you said Qutb was irrelevant. Which caused **Sampiro** to ask why you bothered requesting the cite in the first place. What a stickler… and I explained why. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2011, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/franklin-graham-the-muslim-brotherhood-with-obamas-complicity-has-infiltrated-u-s-govt/575737/52 "2011-03-26T01:14:41Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > What a stickler… and I explained why. Since you didn’t even know who Qutb was, what makes you claim that the current leadership of the MB does? That’s certainly news to the leaders. Please present evidence of a prominent member of the MB denouncing Qutb. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2011, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/franklin-graham-the-muslim-brotherhood-with-obamas-complicity-has-infiltrated-u-s-govt/575737/53 "2011-03-28T17:21:12Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Since you didn’t even know who Qutb was, what makes you claim that the current leadership of the MB does? > > That’s certainly news to the leaders. > > Please present evidence of a prominent member of the MB denouncing Qutb. Your ignorance closely matches the one you so eagerly defend around here. As for your humble request may I point to your previously disclosed information and tell you that someone so knowledgeable should know that already. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2011, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/franklin-graham-the-muslim-brotherhood-with-obamas-complicity-has-infiltrated-u-s-govt/575737/54 "2011-03-28T17:23:57Z")
For those wondering: yes, newcomer really is this stupid, it is not an act. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2011, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/franklin-graham-the-muslim-brotherhood-with-obamas-complicity-has-infiltrated-u-s-govt/575737/55 "2011-03-28T17:59:29Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Please present evidence of a prominent member of the MB denouncing Qutb. > [@newcomer](#): > > As for your humble request may I point to your previously disclosed information and tell you that someone so knowledgeable should know that already. You could do it for the benefit of us less-knowledgeable onlookers, especially those who might interpret your demurral as “weaseling”… ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/franklin-graham-the-muslim-brotherhood-with-obamas-complicity-has-infiltrated-u-s-govt/575737/56 "2011-03-29T01:00:32Z")
> **[Muslim Brotherhood](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhood)** > > Non-state allies: > Affiliated militias only: > The Society of the Muslim Brothers (Arabic: جماعة الإخوان المسلمين Jamāʿat al-Ikhwān al-Muslimīn), better known as the Muslim Brotherhood (الإخوان المسلمون al-Ikhwān al-Muslimūn), is a transnational Sunni Islamist organization founded in Egypt by Islamic scholar and schoolteacher Hassan al-Banna in 1928. Al-Banna's teachings spread far beyond Egypt, influencing today various Islamist movements from charitable organizations to political parties. > **[Qutb: Between Terror and Tragedy](https://ikhwanweb.com/qutb%3a-between-terror-and-trage/)** > > Sayyid Qutb grew up in a very trundled time in Egyptian history. It was a time of demagogues > **[Sayyid Qutb, man of his era](https://ikhwanweb.com/sayyid-qutb%2c-man-of-his-era/)** > > During the Second World War, Sayyid Qutb commuted to his government job in central Cairo on a train ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/franklin-graham-the-muslim-brotherhood-with-obamas-complicity-has-infiltrated-u-s-govt/575737/57 "2011-03-29T01:44:52Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > [Muslim Brotherhood - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhood) > > [http://www.ikhwanweb.com/article.php?id=22709](http://www.ikhwanweb.com/article.php?id=22709) > > [http://www.ikhwanweb.com/article.php?id=26424](http://www.ikhwanweb.com/article.php?id=26424) Nothing in that suggests the Muslim Brotherhood is attempting to distance itself from Qutb. In fact, just the opposite, they’re embracing him. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/franklin-graham-the-muslim-brotherhood-with-obamas-complicity-has-infiltrated-u-s-govt/575737/58 "2011-03-29T02:57:53Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > [Muslim Brotherhood - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhood) > > [http://www.ikhwanweb.com/article.php?id=22709](http://www.ikhwanweb.com/article.php?id=22709) > > [http://www.ikhwanweb.com/article.php?id=26424](http://www.ikhwanweb.com/article.php?id=26424) Okay, I’m not feeling any _less_ ill-informed by that. Thank you for the attempt, though. Still, the two links that lead to the Muslim Brotherhood site reveal articles that (at first glance, at least) appear to be _rehabilitating_, rather than _denouncing_ Qutb. Would you be good enough to post quotes from those articles, which have the denouncing language you appear to think I should be finding? That _is_ what you were asked to present in post #52, after all. The first link, to the wikipedia article on the MB is kinda weak sauce too. Far from quoting a prominent MB member denouncing Qutb, it cites Osama bin Laden criticizing the MB for, as far as I can tell, being insufficiently _doctrinaire_ wrt Qutb’s ideals. I don’t find that to be evidence of a prominent member of MB denouncing Qutb. If Newt Gingrich were to announce that he had filed his federal income tax return and Grover Norquist were to blast him for “betraying the ideals of Ronald Reagan,” would you cite that as an example of Gingrich “denouncing” Reagan? You DID understand what **Ibn Warraq** was asking you to cite, didn’t you? Perhaps it’s just me. Walk me though them, would you, please? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/franklin-graham-the-muslim-brotherhood-with-obamas-complicity-has-infiltrated-u-s-govt/575737/59 "2011-03-29T03:41:46Z")
Incidentally, here is the Muslim Brotherhood’s spiritual leader giving his opinion of Adolph Hitler. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HStliOnVl6Q](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HStliOnVl6Q) Perhaps Newcomer would like to explain how those are the words of a moderate. For the record, Qaradawi is generally considered one of the more moderate leaders of the Muslim Brotherhood so that should give people an idea what the real radicals of the Muslim Brotherhood are like. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/franklin-graham-the-muslim-brotherhood-with-obamas-complicity-has-infiltrated-u-s-govt/575737/60 "2011-03-29T11:00:54Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Perhaps it’s just me. Walk me though them, would you, please? Maybe it is… [http://www.ikhwanweb.com/article.php?id=21267](http://www.ikhwanweb.com/article.php?id=21267) > [@1st para from article](#): > > In fact, the ideas the Islamic intellectual Sayed Qutb conveyed in his writings were not compatible with the path of the followers of Al Sunnah and Jama’ah, He cast blame on Qutb for his excommunicating ideologies rather than the Muslim Brotherhood. Qaradawi explained that the Muslim Brotherhood does not deal with the radical ideology; in fact the thought of the Brotherhood is non-radical. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/franklin-graham-the-muslim-brotherhood-with-obamas-complicity-has-infiltrated-u-s-govt/575737.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/franklin-graham-the-muslim-brotherhood-with-obamas-complicity-has-infiltrated-u-s-govt/575737.md?page=4)