# Fraudulent distances offered by websites **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 15, 2019, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fraudulent-distances-offered-by-websites/827786 "2019-01-15T06:22:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![TSBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@TSBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TSBG)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2019, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fraudulent-distances-offered-by-websites/827786/21 "2019-01-16T17:42:10Z")
But if you use Google mapping to search a route through a browser (as opposed to Google Maps, which I don’t use, unless what I’m seeing is the Maps functionality embedded in Chrome)–of will show you three alternate routes on a map, with the distances and projected time of each. So it isn’t using “crow flies” distance. And neither I would have thought is Waze. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2019, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fraudulent-distances-offered-by-websites/827786/22 "2019-01-16T18:25:55Z")
> [@TSBG](#): > > But if you use Google mapping to search a route through a browser (as opposed to Google Maps, which I don’t use, unless what I’m seeing is the Maps functionality embedded in Chrome)–of will show you three alternate routes on a map, with the distances and projected time of each. So it isn’t using “crow flies” distance. And neither I would have thought is Waze. The app version does, though. It looks like it first just uses crows distances to quickly pull up the closest hits to your search, and then when you hit “directions” it calculates the actual route to the place you selected. For example, I just searched for the nearest Walmarts, which came up as 3.2 miles away, but is 4.4 miles when a driving route is calculated. The next one shows up as 7.4 miles away, but is 11 miles with the drive. So, clearly, the initial calculation is probably just based off lat-long coordinates to quickly throw an answer up for you, and then when you select it, it will give you the actual route distance (and, of course, that distance will vary depending on what mode of transportation your route is: driving, cycling, public, walking.) ETA: Apple Maps also gives me the same, lower numbers until I click on them, as does Waze. They’re all doing the initial calculation the same way/using the same databases, it seems. The browser version of Google Maps does not give me any distance information (even though it knows where my “home” is) until I actually click on where I want to go. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2019, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fraudulent-distances-offered-by-websites/827786/23 "2019-01-16T18:35:17Z")
And nothing at all to me seems “fraudulent” about it. It’s a lot more straightforward to maintain a database of post office zip code lat-long coordinates and calculate distance off of that than having to run a routing query every time somebody requests distance information. OK, I suppose you can just run each query once and throw it in the database, but what happens when routes change? Roads are closed? New roads are opened? All that may affect distances. Easier and lot less hassle to just to go with a simple approach that gives you crows-flight distance. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2019, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fraudulent-distances-offered-by-websites/827786/24 "2019-01-16T19:20:50Z")
> [@TSBG](#): > > I don’t know if the mapping issue with Google is the same as the one I experience with Waze, as they’re part of the same company, but I have experienced some underreported distances. Last night we were in an unfamiliar part of town and craving In n’ Out. I checked Waze and the nearest one is supposed to be 3.8 miles away. First direction, go two miles and make a left on Whatever Road. Stopped at the light at Whatever Road, I check Waze and it’s now…3.6 miles to the In n’ Out. Google will normally tell you the distance from wherever you were the last time you had a GPS signal. It won’t confirm your location until you actually open the Maps or Waze app, so usually there will be a difference in the distance shown in the browser (or whatever you used to search the location originally) and what comes up in the GPS app. ---
**Author:** ![TSBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@TSBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TSBG)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2019, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fraudulent-distances-offered-by-websites/827786/25 "2019-01-16T21:28:19Z")
Thanks **puly** and **Really**. Chrome seems to know my location precisely, though I wish it didn’t. One of these days I’ll get a VPN. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2019, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fraudulent-distances-offered-by-websites/827786/26 "2019-01-16T22:19:00Z")
> [@TSBG](#): > > Thanks **puly** and **Really**. > > Chrome seems to know my location precisely, though I wish it didn’t. One of these days I’ll get a VPN. Click on this to see who you have allowed your Chrome to access geolocation information. This is just a link to your own Chrome settings page. ETA: Hmm… apparently I can’t just link it like that. Type in or cut and paste: chrome://settings/content/location to see your Chrome geolocation permissions. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2019, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fraudulent-distances-offered-by-websites/827786/27 "2019-01-16T22:30:27Z")
What I don’t know is what effect this has on laptop/desktop geolocation, which doesn’t have GPS. A website can still figure out generally where you are, or appear to be, from an IP address. But clearly there is more information with geolocation turned on. When I go to “where am I?” websites based on my IP address, they put me a good four, five miles away from my actual location. When I go to a website that asks me for permission to access my geolocation info, it places me on a map about 1/8 of a mile from where I actually live. So what is going on here? Here’s the IP only website: [Where am I? • Ipcim.com](https://ipcim.com/en/?p=where) Here’s the website where I have to allow Chrome to access geolocation data: [https://www.where-am-i.co/](https://www.where-am-i.co/) ETA: Ah… and that makes sense. I’ve noticed lately that websites put me in an zip code a few zip codes away, and that corresponds exactly to the zip code that first website puts me in. But what additional detail does Chrome geolocation services have that can pinpoint me so close to where I actually live? ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2019, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fraudulent-distances-offered-by-websites/827786/28 "2019-01-16T23:22:37Z")
> [@TSBG](#): > > Thanks **puly** and **Really**. > > Chrome seems to know my location precisely, though I wish it didn’t. One of these days I’ll get a VPN. The reason chrome knows is that if you have a phone with Gmail and are signed into Gmail in chrome, both devices count as being signed into your Google account. So chrome is asking Google’s servers which in turn know where your phone is precisely from GPS and also wifi and cellular. So yeah if I open up my work laptop I see a targeting pip in google maps right where I am in the building. On the bright side, hopefully if I were ever suspected of a crime the records could help me meaningfully prove I wasn’t there. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2019, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fraudulent-distances-offered-by-websites/827786/29 "2019-01-16T23:28:13Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > The reason chrome knows is that if you have a phone with Gmail and are signed into Gmail in chrome, both devices count as being signed into your Google account. So chrome is asking Google’s servers which in turn know where your phone is precisely from GPS and also wifi and cellular. So yeah if I open up my work laptop I see a targeting pip in google maps right where I am in the building. I thought that, too, but I signed out of of Google before checking my coordinates from the website I listed above. And, checking now, I’m still signed out of Google, and it still places me a block from where my computer is actually located. ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2019, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fraudulent-distances-offered-by-websites/827786/30 "2019-01-17T12:26:33Z")
> [@TSBG](#): > > One of these days I’ll get a VPN. This has unexpected complications, FWIW. I’ve lost track of the number of times I’ve asked a website if such-and-such was available in the Target or Home Depot store near me, only to be told in happy ignorance something to the effect of “Yes, it is!” and then in much smaller print “available in the Buckhead store.” Buckhead is in Atlanta, where my VPN tends to connect me. ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2019, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fraudulent-distances-offered-by-websites/827786/31 "2019-01-17T14:54:05Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > […] But what additional detail does Chrome geolocation services have that can pinpoint me so close to where I actually live? Apparently Google has a database of wifi MAC addresses and their locations: > [@](#): > > When Google wardrives taking photos for street view, they also sniff wireless access points and cell phone cell ids. The geolocation service sends the MAC address of nearby wireless APs and cell ids to google, who presumably do some triangulation in their database to come up with the accurate location. > ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2019, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fraudulent-distances-offered-by-websites/827786/32 "2019-01-17T15:33:05Z")
I thought about wifi, too, but it seems MAC addresses aren’t seen by websites [according to this](https://superuser.com/questions/114110/is-your-mac-address-revealed-when-you-hit-up-a-website) and various other sites I’ve researched. Or, rather, using the ipv4 protocol, they can’t be seen, but with ipv6 they _might_ be able to somehow figure it out without client-side software feeding it to them. But networking is my weak point when it comes to computers. Can somebody here versed in these technical matters explain? ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2019, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fraudulent-distances-offered-by-websites/827786/33 "2019-01-17T16:00:10Z")
> [@naita](#): > > Apparently Google has a database of wifi MAC addresses and their locations: > [Where do Firefox and Chrome (etc.) get their Geolocation data from? - Stack Overflow](https://stackoverflow.com/questions/2873081/where-do-firefox-and-chrome-etc-get-their-geolocation-data-from) They also use cell tower info. The combination of the three sources is what google calls “High Accuracy” location services on an android phone. Google’s use of Wifi is probably one of those things that’s most useful when there are multiple networks nearby. The way it works is that as they drive around and/or you connect to Google and your wifi router at the same time, they’re correlating the signal strength and the location of the car or your phone to that wifi access point. Conceptually, they’re drawing bubbles of signal strength for each one, and where thee all overlap is where you’re likely to be. Basic triangulation, in other words. Where it gets kind of sticky is that they don’t know the transmit strength for a particular wifi AP, so it sort of defines a bubble around the car/phone that the AP could be located in, based on where the car/phone is now. So what you’re ending up with is a 2d region in which the AP could be located. As time goes on, they’ll get more and more readings to correlate, so that region gets smaller and smaller. I also imagine they do something like pick the center of the region as the “location” for purposes of locating a phone. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2019, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fraudulent-distances-offered-by-websites/827786/34 "2019-01-17T16:17:14Z")
> [@bump](#): > > They also use cell tower info. The combination of the three sources is what google calls “High Accuracy” location services on an android phone. > > Google’s use of Wifi is probably one of those things that’s most useful when there are multiple networks nearby. > > The way it works is that as they drive around and/or you connect to Google and your wifi router at the same time, they’re correlating the signal strength and the location of the car or your phone to that wifi access point. Conceptually, they’re drawing bubbles of signal strength for each one, and where thee all overlap is where you’re likely to be. Basic triangulation, in other words. > > Where it gets kind of sticky is that they don’t know the transmit strength for a particular wifi AP, so it sort of defines a bubble around the car/phone that the AP could be located in, based on where the car/phone is now. So what you’re ending up with is a 2d region in which the AP could be located. As time goes on, they’ll get more and more readings to correlate, so that region gets smaller and smaller. I also imagine they do something like pick the center of the region as the “location” for purposes of locating a phone. But my question is regarding using a desktop computer. I’m signed out of Google, I’m on a desktop connected directly to my router via ethernet (but it is a wireless router), and when I enable geolocation on Chrome, it places me within a block of where I live. Now that I think about it, maybe that’s it. Giving Chrome permission to use geolocation services sends along the MAC info which they could look up in their database? ---
**Author:** ![TSBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@TSBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TSBG)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2019, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fraudulent-distances-offered-by-websites/827786/35 "2019-01-17T18:23:57Z")
Hmm. As far as I can tell, I have prohibited Chrome on my laptop from using my location unless it asks, which it doesn’t. I’m signed into my Gmail on my iPhone, using the Mail app NOT the Gmail app, and unless I’m missing it I don’t see that there’s an option to prevent Mail from using my location. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2019, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fraudulent-distances-offered-by-websites/827786/36 "2019-01-17T19:17:09Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > But my question is regarding using a desktop computer. I’m signed out of Google, I’m on a desktop connected directly to my router via ethernet (but it is a wireless router), and when I enable geolocation on Chrome, it places me within a block of where I live. > > Now that I think about it, maybe that’s it. Giving Chrome permission to use geolocation services sends along the MAC info which they could look up in their database? Is your phone logged into Google while you’re using your computer? That’s how mine works- if I’m logged into Google on my phone and computer, it’s using the phone location services to determine where I am. I know, because looking at google maps on my work computer still shows me located where I ate lunch 10 minutes ago, not where I actually am. That said, if they’re tracking and triangulating wifi access point locations by mac address, all they’d have to do is get your router’s mac address and use that as your location, regardless of how you’re actually connected to it. I don’t know if Google collects that through browser connections though. ---
**Author:** ![TSBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@TSBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TSBG)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2019, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fraudulent-distances-offered-by-websites/827786/37 "2019-01-19T00:43:21Z")
I came across this article: > **[Google tracks and records your movements even if you turn off Location History](https://www.latimes.com/business/technology/la-fi-tn-google-location-tracking-20180813-story.html)** > > Google wants to know where you go so badly that it records your movements even when you explicitly tell it not to. I’ve turned everything off in Chrome, but it still knows where I am. I’m still in the same place as my phone, but I can’t see how Google is using it to find me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fraudulent-distances-offered-by-websites/827786.md?page=1)