# Fraudulent Elections in Iran **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 13, 2009, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fraudulent-elections-in-iran/499671 "2009-06-13T16:22:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2009, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fraudulent-elections-in-iran/499671/81 "2009-06-14T21:04:49Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > My two cents, the Iranians will protest for about a week, then everything will return to a sense of normality, the only changes will be the average Iranian will just be even more apathetic about life in Iran. I see alcholism, drug use and rampant corruption and societal decay in the cities to continue a much faster pace, much like Russia during the closing years of the Soviet Union. > > No revolution is gonna happen, but the cynicism of the government and it’s actions will permeat through out Irans society, so Iran’s government might of staved off reformists for now, but has probably hastened it’s collapse sooner rather than later. Alcohol is banned in Iran. it would be tough for it to become a problem. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2009, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fraudulent-elections-in-iran/499671/82 "2009-06-14T21:26:36Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > Alcoholism and drug abuse are serious problems in Iran and this is caused by lack of democracy? > > The things I learn everyday. I never cease to be amazed. > > But I suppose it follows logically when you stop to think that democratic countries have almost not alcohol or drug abuse. Sheesh, everytime I raise something, there’s always someone to jump on it and take the wrong conclusion. NO, I’m not saying because of lack of democracy there’s drugs and violence, but I’m trying to raise parallels between the social breakdown in Soviet society in the 80’s and Iranian society are similar, the Iranians already have a huge drug problem and prostitution problem, I’m just thinking these problems are exacerbated by the rigid laws and rules laid down by the Islamic Republic. > [@](#): > > Alcohol is banned in Iran. it would be tough for it to become a problem. So are satellite dishes receiving Western broadcasts, yet nearly everyone has one, your point being? The Iranian government likes to sweep some of it societies ills under the carpet, like it has with alcoholism, prostitution and drug abuse. I could be wrong, but that’s the way I see it. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2009, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fraudulent-elections-in-iran/499671/83 "2009-06-14T21:48:45Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Please submit your Certificate of Telepathy for examination. Thank you. > > (And “my boy” is appropriately respectful and affectionate, but the Eddy, Teddy, and Freddy refered to prefer “Mom”.) Oh please, telepathy is not required here. Any pretense to a lack of subtext on that one is silly. You are a humorous fellow and humorous fellows know what they are saying and how it will be received, and subtext is the substance of wit. Therefore it is unreasonable to believe that you were referring to anyone other than George W. who has been referred to derisively as King George a la the King you just referenced. So please spare us the, ‘telepathy’, certification. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2009, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fraudulent-elections-in-iran/499671/84 "2009-06-14T21:50:09Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > Over half the Sunnis are Kurds, who may have an interest in throwing their own wrench in the works. (And, something about using the word “success” to describe the result of a “misadventure” grates on me. Can’t quite say why.) There is a distinct goal that has been in place since the beginning of the war in Iraq. If that strategy goal is achieved then it is a ‘success’. That is regardless of your personal opinion regarding the auspices under which hostilities commenced. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2009, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fraudulent-elections-in-iran/499671/85 "2009-06-14T22:48:26Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Oh please, telepathy is not required here. Any pretense to a lack of subtext on that one is silly. You are a humorous fellow and humorous fellows know what they are saying and how it will be received, and subtext is the substance of wit. Therefore it is unreasonable to believe that you were referring to anyone other than George W. who has been referred to derisively as King George a la the King you just referenced. So please spare us the, ‘telepathy’, certification. What a load of crap. I read what **luci** said strictly as a commentary on King George’s policy towards the colonies over here in the late 18th century. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2009, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fraudulent-elections-in-iran/499671/86 "2009-06-14T23:18:16Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Please submit your Certificate of Telepathy for examination. Thank you. > > (And “my boy” is appropriately respectful and affectionate, but the Eddy, Teddy, and Freddy refered to prefer “Mom”.) 😃 ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2009, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fraudulent-elections-in-iran/499671/87 "2009-06-14T23:38:28Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > There is a distinct goal that has been in place since the beginning of the war in Iraq. If that strategy goal is achieved then it is a ‘success’. That is regardless of your personal opinion regarding the auspices under which hostilities commenced. No, the goals have been lowered since the beginning of the war every couple of weeks to the point where they are meaningless. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2009, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fraudulent-elections-in-iran/499671/88 "2009-06-14T23:45:48Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > No, the goals have been lowered since the beginning of the war every couple of weeks to the point where they are meaningless. Umm no. That’s just a slogan. Whether Iraq functions as a Democratic government in ten or twenty years determines success. Nothing else. Tactic goals shift on the battlefield. That is the strategic objective and always has been. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2009, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fraudulent-elections-in-iran/499671/89 "2009-06-14T23:47:18Z")
In times past the presidency of Iran was a largely symbolic post compared to that of [Supreme Leader.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supreme_Leader_of_Iran) But, [according to ex-Foreign Minister Ibrahim Yazdi,](http://www.thenation.com/blogs/dreyfuss/443348) Ahmadinejad and the [Revolutionary Guards](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sepah) have gradually carried out what amounts to a coup d’etat, marginalizing Khamenei by controlling his access to information. This election is merely the capstone. > [@](#): > > \*\*I’ve heard people say that President Ahmadinejad is gathering so much power that he might be able to use the Revolutionary Guard and his other allies to make a coup d’etat against the state. \*\* > > A coup d’etat? They’ve already made one! They’ve created a dictatorship, in fact. Do you know that last night the security forces occupied the offices of many newspapers, to make sure that their reporting on the election was favorable? They changed many headlines. They fixed the election. > > The Guards are taking over everything, including many economic institutions. The ministry of the interior is increasing its control in all the provinces. > > We have information that Ahmadinejad is thinking about changing the Constitution to allow the president to serve more than two terms, to make his presidency more or less permanent. > > Of course, there are strong voices in the establishment that will challenge him. It is not clear that he and the Sepah (the Revolutionary Guard) will be strong enough to overcome them. But there will be clashes over this. > > \*\*Where does the Leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, stand in regard to this? \*\* > > The problem is that there is concern about the relationship between the Leader and the Guards. To what extent can the Leader control or moderate the Guards? This is a difficult question. > > After the last election [2005], after Ahmadinejad was first elected, there were many questions raised about Ahmadinejad’s effort to isolate the Leader. We talked openly about this. This time, in preparation for the vote, they isolated him even further. For instance, in years past [former President] Ali Akbar Hashemi-Rafsanjani was influential, perhaps even more influential than the leader. Now, with the slogans being used at Ahmadinejad’s rallies, things like “Death to Hashemi!”, they have created a deep rift. Khamenei has also lost the support of many high-ranking members of the clergy. > > Many old comrades of the [1979] revolution don’t trust Ahmadinejad. It is only the Sepah that supports him. > > \*\*And what do you mean by “isolating” the Leader? \*\* > > By monitoring and controlling the flow of information to him. Unfortunately, God will not reveal information to him directly. Where does he get his information, his data? The system works in such a way that information is very powerful. And Ahmadinejad controls the ministry of the interior, the ministry of information, the ministry of intelligence. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2009, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fraudulent-elections-in-iran/499671/90 "2009-06-14T23:47:35Z")
> [@Captain\_Carrot](#): > > What a load of crap. I read what **luci** said strictly as a commentary on King George’s policy towards the colonies over here in the late 18th century. Ahh so we are playing the ‘context doesn’t apply’ game. Anyway I’m not going to debate it, he wants to say that a direct response to a comment about Iraq succeeding as a Democracy had no subtext regarding George W. Bush, then fine, you all can hold that position, it’s not part of the main topic and I don’t give a rats ass. ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2009, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fraudulent-elections-in-iran/499671/91 "2009-06-14T23:47:58Z")
[RedState:](http://www.redstate.com/dan_mclaughlin/2009/06/13/in-praise-of-chaos-in-iran/) > [@](#): > > But while chaos in Iran is not without risk, it is greatly to be encouraged. > > First, Iran has been a thorn in the side of the United States, both in Iraq and more broadly around the region, and as often as not it has meddled in our and others’ affairs without cost. There are few principles of international relations more critical than always giving the other guy a downside for making trouble. The disputed election makes the Iranian regime vulnerable; it is precisely at such moments of vulnerability that the regime can be made to suffer the downside of making us an enemy. > > Second, the Iranian regime is bad for the Iranian people. Anything we can do to improve the chances of eliminating that regime improves the odds of cracking open Iranian society for the better. Violence is, unfortunately, the rule rather than the exception in revolutions, but freedom often isn’t free - and as we have seen in recent decades, a surprising number of brutal but brittle regimes have crumpled in the face of popular uprising when they lost the will to stage their own Tianamen Square moment. There is only one way to find out; if the Iranian people are ready to take the chance, we should do whatever we can in our power to encourage them. > > Third, a weak and inward-facing Iranian regime will be a lesser threat to continue pursuing its nuclear program and other forms of mischief, and may even provide opportunities for well-funded intelligence operations to take advantage of an unstable situation to further weaken Iranian capabilities. > > Fourth, Iran has long stood as a propaganda victory for the Islamists, proof of a sort that an Islamic revolutionary state could stand against the West. That victory has inspired even Sunni Islamists who otherwise have little in common with Shi’ite Iran. The collapse or weakening of the regime at the hands of popular unrest would further demonstrate the dead end that is the radical Islamic political project. > > America today has a great opportunity to make trouble for a hostile government while at the same time potentially lending an opportunity for freedom to its oppressed people. We should use whatever resources are at our disposal to make the best of that chance. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fraudulent-elections-in-iran/499671/92 "2009-06-15T00:04:11Z")
> [@athelas](#): > > [RedState:](http://www.redstate.com/dan_mclaughlin/2009/06/13/in-praise-of-chaos-in-iran/) Except for those regarding political Islamism, all of these arguments could have been (and substantially were) made for the U.S. invasion of Iraq. I hope we’ve learned a lesson by now. Iran is every bit as volatile as Iraq and five times as big. Iran, like Iraq, [is a multinational state,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran#Demography) and there are Kurdish nationalists, Arab Khuzestani nationalists, Balochi nationalists and maybe even Azeri nationalists waiting for a chance to break up the country. And then, cutting across the ethnic divisions, there’s the religious-hardliner/secular-reformist split, both sides of which have significant popular support. That’s a formula for a really bloody war-to-the-knife civil conflict. Let’s not stir up something too hot to handle. There’s no way it wouldn’t spill over into neighboring countries. And we can’t expect an oil-producing country to keep pumping and exporting oil while a civil war is going on – can we? Watch out for horrors at the gas pump. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fraudulent-elections-in-iran/499671/93 "2009-06-15T00:10:11Z")
And if the Iranian Kurds take advantage of the chaos to secede, they and the Iraqi Kurds are bound to get the idea of splitting off and merging to form a united independent [Kurdistan](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdistan) – and then start making overtures to the Turkish Kurds – which will only provoke the Turkish government even more. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fraudulent-elections-in-iran/499671/94 "2009-06-15T00:16:27Z")
Likewise, if the Iranian Balochis (at the east end of the country) secede, they’ll want to unite with the Afghan and Pakistani Balochis to form an independent [Balochistan](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balochistan_(region)) – and, since we’re trying so hard to pacify Afghanistan and keep Pakistan as an ally, which side does the U.S. support **then?!** Things are seldom simple, and this is clearly not one that is. Best just not to go there in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fraudulent-elections-in-iran/499671/95 "2009-06-15T00:23:31Z")
[Newsifact: Katherine Harris applauds Iranian election results - declares process "free and fair."](http://newsifact.blogspot.com/2009/06/katherine-harris-applauds-iranian.html) It has been settled. The elections were fair. ---
**Author:** ![Plan\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Plan\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Plan_B)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fraudulent-elections-in-iran/499671/96 "2009-06-15T02:10:24Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > [Newsifact: Katherine Harris applauds Iranian election results - declares process "free and fair."](http://newsifact.blogspot.com/2009/06/katherine-harris-applauds-iranian.html) It has been settled. The elections were fair. You know that’s a spoof, don’t you? Here’s another link from that site, since you forgot the smiley: > **[Exclusive: Dick Cheney to star as bad guy in new Scooby Doo.](http://newsifact.blogspot.com/2009/06/exclusive-dick-cheney-to-star-as-bad.html)** ---
**Author:** ![Plan\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Plan\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Plan_B)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fraudulent-elections-in-iran/499671/97 "2009-06-15T02:13:55Z")
Some interesting observations about how news is being reported from Iran: > **[Iran Moves To End](https://slashdot.org/story/09/06/14/183200/Iran-Moves-To-End-Facebook-Revolution?art_pos=5)** > > We've had a few readers send in updates on the chaotic post-election situation in Iran. Twitter is providing better coverage than CNN at the moment. There are both tech and humanitarian angles to the story, as the two samples below illustrate. First,... ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fraudulent-elections-in-iran/499671/98 "2009-06-15T02:46:27Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Ahh so we are playing the ‘context doesn’t apply’ game. Anyway I’m not going to debate it, he wants to say that a direct response to a comment about Iraq succeeding as a Democracy had no subtext regarding George W. Bush, then fine, you all can hold that position, it’s not part of the main topic and I don’t give a rats ass. It was a comparison, not a direct allegory; King George’s attitudes towards the colonies versus the Bush administration’s actions in Iraq and the ME in general. You’re being ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fraudulent-elections-in-iran/499671/99 "2009-06-15T14:24:46Z")
Here’s a great blog about what’s happening in Iran. > **[Iran Demonstrations: Violent Clashes Between Protestors And Riot Police (VIDEO)](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/iran-demonstrations-viole_n_215189)** > > I'm filtering through the flood of videos, tweets, and news updates coming in from Iran. Check in for the latest. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fraudulent-elections-in-iran/499671/100 "2009-06-15T14:26:22Z")
> [@Captain\_Carrot](#): > > It was a comparison, not a direct allegory; King George’s attitudes towards the colonies versus the Bush administration’s actions in Iraq and the ME in general. You’re being ridiculous. Yes, it was a comparison, and I treated it as such. I’m not being ridiculous at all. You’re inflating a straw man and telling it that it’s ridiculous. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fraudulent-elections-in-iran/499671.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fraudulent-elections-in-iran/499671.md?page=6)