# Fraudulent Elections in Iran **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 13, 2009, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fraudulent-elections-in-iran/499671 "2009-06-13T16:22:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Onomatopoeia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onomatopoeia/32/4145_2.png) [@Onomatopoeia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onomatopoeia)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fraudulent-elections-in-iran/499671/101 "2009-06-15T14:52:31Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Yes, it was a comparison, and I treated it as such. I’m not being ridiculous at all. You’re inflating a straw man and telling it that it’s ridiculous. Less filling! ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fraudulent-elections-in-iran/499671/102 "2009-06-15T14:55:12Z")
> [@Plan\_B](#): > > You know that’s a spoof, don’t you? Here’s another link from that site, since you forgot the smiley: > > [Newsifact: Exclusive: Dick Cheney to star as bad guy in new Scooby Doo.](http://newsifact.blogspot.com/2009/06/exclusive-dick-cheney-to-star-as-bad.html) Oh no, If it is on the net ,it must be true. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fraudulent-elections-in-iran/499671/103 "2009-06-15T14:56:12Z")
> [@Onomatopoeia](#): > > Less filling! Congratulations to Elucidator on his hijack though. Well played. Getting people to get on my case for continuing the line of discussion was very clever. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fraudulent-elections-in-iran/499671/104 "2009-06-15T15:08:33Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > We’ll see. And back to the OP: the idea that the U.S. can do anything about this is absurd. What’s happening is unfortunate but the U.S. has no leverage on Iran, has little spare military power and it’s help is clearly not wanted at all. Not only that but America knows it depends on Iran to keep Iraq stable. Iran can cause a lot of trouble in Iraq if it chooses to. This is a delicate balancing act. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fraudulent-elections-in-iran/499671/105 "2009-06-15T15:08:44Z")
> [@Plan\_B](#): > > No what’s absurd is your inability to think in any terms other than military solutions. If you had taken the time to read even post #2 you would have seen that there are other ways to go. And I endorsed that educational approach as soon as I read the post. The James Bond and porn idea is fun, but I don’t think it’s realistic. And they do have the Internet over there, so I don’t think it’s needed. Sorry if you object to my taking “act aggressively” at face value. > [@](#): > > Also, in case you had never heard of diplomatic sanctions before today, I at least mentioned that possibility in a later post. You apparently don’t know anything about Iran, because it’s very much isolated from the West due to diplomatic sanctions. When I said the U.S. had no leverage, that’s what I was talking about. The U.S. and Iran have no diplomatic relations and there are already tons of sanctions in place. > [@mswas](#): > > You’re touching on a fallacy that very few people recognize. The idea that the youth ever give up seeking power. It’s just a truism that the youth always gain power in the end. I made no predictions on what will happen “in the end” or “eventually” or “ALWAYS.” I said I don’t think this specific event is going to encourage greater democratic participation in an upcoming election. I hope the protests can accomplish something, but we’ll see if this becomes a sustained movement or not. I hope so but I’m not optimistic. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fraudulent-elections-in-iran/499671/106 "2009-06-15T15:18:42Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I made no predictions on what will happen “in the end” or “eventually” or “ALWAYS.” I said I don’t think this specific event is going to encourage greater democratic participation in an upcoming election. I hope the protests can accomplish something, but we’ll see if this becomes a sustained movement or not. I hope so but I’m not optimistic. Well I hope it can lead to more honest elections in the future. This generation of politically active kids WILL one day take power. It’s inevitable. ---
**Author:** ![Plan\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Plan\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Plan_B)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fraudulent-elections-in-iran/499671/107 "2009-06-15T15:24:30Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Well I hope it can lead to more honest elections in the future. This generation of politically active kids WILL one day take power. It’s inevitable. I hope you’re right, but I have a hard time agreeing that it’s inevitable. I think it will happen if lots of decent people make lots of sacrifices in the years ahead. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fraudulent-elections-in-iran/499671/108 "2009-06-15T15:26:53Z")
> [@Plan\_B](#): > > I hope you’re right, but I have a hard time agreeing that it’s inevitable. I think it will happen if lots of decent people make lots of sacrifices in the years ahead. It’s inevitable because old people die and young people inherit the positions of power. It is inevitable in an objective sense, it’s a biological certainty that one day the President of Iran will be someone who is in their teens - twenties today. This isn’t debatable, it’s not a matter of opinion. Old people die and young people take their jobs. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fraudulent-elections-in-iran/499671/109 "2009-06-15T15:30:06Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Congratulations to Elucidator on his hijack though. Well played. Getting people to get on my case for continuing the line of discussion was very clever. Your case is that you totally did not understand what was being said and then you continued to pretend you really deliberately intended to slip and fall over. > [@](#): > > Iraq has a functioning government, the Iraqi military is taking over more of the functions of national security. It looks like things are going to work out for Iraq. If by “working government” you mean a government which does not really have control over much of anything, then yes. The previous regime had a “working government”. The present one is not “working”. And, as I said, Iran can cause plenty of trouble for the USA in Iraq so it is better to talk softly and not even mention sticks. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fraudulent-elections-in-iran/499671/110 "2009-06-15T15:34:28Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > It’s inevitable because old people die and young people inherit the positions of power. It is inevitable in an objective sense, it’s a biological certainty that one day the President of Iran will be someone who is in their teens - twenties today. This isn’t debatable, it’s not a matter of opinion. Old people die and young people take their jobs. But the hippies never took over the American government. They were first transformed into born-again semi-geriatric christian-capitalists. The clarity of youth gave way to the clarity of maturity. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fraudulent-elections-in-iran/499671/111 "2009-06-15T15:57:55Z")
I suspect that most elections around the world have a fraudulent component. The people in charge ,count or have their people do the tallying. It is normal for people to take care of themselves and their friends if they can get away with it. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fraudulent-elections-in-iran/499671/112 "2009-06-15T17:43:26Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Well I hope it can lead to more honest elections in the future. This generation of politically active kids WILL one day take power. It’s inevitable. I understand the aging process. The question is, what will those people stand for if they get to lead the Iranian government one day? We’ll have to see. Apparently Khameini has ordered an investigation into the vote. We’ll see what kind of investigation that ends up being and what the potential results are. Would they just bring the vote totals down to something that looks more realistic, or dismiss the whole issue, or have a runoff, or…? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fraudulent-elections-in-iran/499671/113 "2009-06-15T17:51:06Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > Your case is that you totally did not understand what was being said and then you continued to pretend you really deliberately intended to slip and fall over. I didn’t slip and fall over. He responded to a comment about Iraq becoming a viable Democracy with a comment about the ineptitude of George III. Words have meaning and context matters. I understood what he said perfectly the first time. > [@](#): > > If by “working government” you mean a government which does not really have control over much of anything, then yes. The previous regime had a “working government”. The present one is not “working”. Cite? > [@](#): > > And, as I said, Iran can cause plenty of trouble for the USA in Iraq so it is better to talk softly and not even mention sticks. Agreed, I don’t think we should do anything in Iran, let them sort it out themselves. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fraudulent-elections-in-iran/499671/114 "2009-06-15T17:53:53Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > But the hippies never took over the American government. They were first transformed into born-again semi-geriatric christian-capitalists. The clarity of youth gave way to the clarity of maturity. Yeah, but today we are debating gay marriage. So I’d argue that you’re wrong the hippies did take over ultimately. I’ve been to Peter Yarrow’s house for dinner with all his UN NGO buddies. I missed the dinner where his daughter’s Godfather John Kerry showed up. > [@Marley23](#): > > I understand the aging process. The question is, what will those people stand for if they get to lead the Iranian government one day? We’ll have to see. Yes, we will have to see. I just think that there is enough of a groundswell amongst the youth to see a real change in how things are run when the next generation takes over. > [@](#): > > Apparently Khameini has ordered an investigation into the vote. We’ll see what kind of investigation that ends up being and what the potential results are. Would they just bring the vote totals down to something that looks more realistic, or dismiss the whole issue, or have a runoff, or…? His investigation is meaningless, that’s the Fox guarding the Henhouse. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fraudulent-elections-in-iran/499671/115 "2009-06-15T17:57:29Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > His investigation is meaningless, that’s the Fox guarding the Henhouse. I don’t expect the investigation itself is meaningful, although maybe if there’s a gap between Amodinajhodpurs and Khameini, something could turn up. If the investigationis cover for them to change the result, either to have a runoff or try to cover up their fraud, that’s potentially something. If they investigate for a week and then declare everything was kosher, that would not advance anything. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fraudulent-elections-in-iran/499671/116 "2009-06-15T17:57:46Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Cite? You have already been given cites so go and cite yourself now. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fraudulent-elections-in-iran/499671/117 "2009-06-15T18:00:39Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > You have already been given cites so go and cite yourself now. No one has given me a cite that says that the Iraqi government is powerless. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fraudulent-elections-in-iran/499671/118 "2009-06-15T18:01:53Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I don’t expect the investigation itself is meaningful, although maybe if there’s a gap between Amodinajhodpurs and Khameini, something could turn up. If the investigationis cover for them to change the result, either to have a runoff or try to cover up their fraud, that’s potentially something. If they investigate for a week and then declare everything was kosher, that would not advance anything. Yeah, I don’t know how they plan on doing it. It’ll be interesting. Maybe Khameini will see this as an opportunity to remove Ahmadinejad from power, he has to be a greater threat to the Supreme Council than Mousavi at this point anyway. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fraudulent-elections-in-iran/499671/119 "2009-06-15T19:32:27Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > No one has given me a cite that says that the Iraqi government is powerless. Look, you really need to go away because you have been given [Failed state - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Failed_state) which lists Iraq as among the worst 5 failed states in the world and government control of force and other factors are right up there in the list of criteria. Of the 12 items Iraq is right up there in most of them. The government of Iraq is unable to exert effective control over their own country. They come second to the American forces and to the militias. The government of Iraq is only free to do as they please in the measure that they do not upset America, the militias or Iran too much. So just quit this bullshit and read that page. Iraq is among the five worst hellholes on earth right now. Quit pretending you don’t understand that. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fraudulent-elections-in-iran/499671/120 "2009-06-15T19:38:00Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > Look, you really need to go away because you have been given [Failed state - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Failed_state) which lists Iraq as among the worst 5 failed states in the world and government control of force and other factors are right up there in the list of criteria. Of the 12 items Iraq is right up there in most of them. The government of Iraq is unable to exert effective control over their own country. They come second to the American forces and to the militias. The government of Iraq is only free to do as they please in the measure that they do not upset America, the militias or Iran too much. So just quit this bullshit and read that page. Iraq is among the five worst hellholes on earth right now. Quit pretending you don’t understand that. Calling Iraq a failed state tells me something, but it doesn’t answer it. I do not need to ‘go away’, you could easily address this with some intellectual honesty in the thread I started for the topic. I am not pretending anything. You are oversimplifying and I am not accepting your oversimplifications, I am sorry that this annoys you, but I’m not going to stop. I am starting from the recognition that Iraq has a lot of problems but that it’s moving forward in progress. I think it’s silly to accept the idea that a functioning state should be built within half a decade. It’s not just silly it’s moronic. The only people who hold us to that are ideologues who cannot accept that their guy was an idiot and ideologues who only care about issues as far as they can stop at ‘Bush is a total failure in every way.’ No one has even addressed my comments regarding the status of Germany and Japan in 1951. So I’m sorry, but posting to a list of failed states is not sufficient for me. If it’s sufficient for you, then why don’t YOU go away and let me talk to those who are more intellectually curious about the issue? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fraudulent-elections-in-iran/499671.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fraudulent-elections-in-iran/499671.md?page=7)