# Fred Hoyle dead. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 22, 2001, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fred-hoyle-dead/77559 "2001-08-22T16:02:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Podkayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Podkayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Podkayne)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2001, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fred-hoyle-dead/77559/1 "2001-08-22T16:02:01Z")
[http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/space/08/22/obit.hoyle.ap/index.html](http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/space/08/22/obit.hoyle.ap/index.html) > [@](#): > > Hoyle died Monday in Bournemouth, his family said. The cause of death was not announced. Germs from outer space, perhaps? Happily, Chandra Wichramasinghe will be carrying Hoyle’s torch, but the old boy will be missed. Well, since I have to wring a debate out of this in order to post in GD: I think having loonies in the scientific community is a good thing. The General Public might be mislead by their wacko rantings, but the GP also believes that aliens abduct people an anally probe them, despite round condemnation of such beliefs by mainstream science. Strange ideas are still an important part of the scientific process. ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2001, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fred-hoyle-dead/77559/2 "2001-08-22T16:12:28Z")
Great. Who will I call now when we’ve had a misdeal in a game of Bid Whist? Dr. J ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2001, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fred-hoyle-dead/77559/3 "2001-08-22T16:44:39Z")
Ya’ know, you don’t _have_ to post in GD. There are other boards. ---
**Author:** ![Podkayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Podkayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Podkayne)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2001, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fred-hoyle-dead/77559/4 "2001-08-22T16:51:28Z")
Yeah, but if I posted in MPSIMS, people who read GD and not MPSIMIS wouldn’t see it, and I tend to think that GD readers would be more interested than your average post-party flirt-thread frequenter. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2001, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fred-hoyle-dead/77559/5 "2001-08-22T16:56:19Z")
But [August the Twentieth Is Too Soon](http://www.natur.cuni.cz/~vpetr/Hoyle.htm) ! ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_Wright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@Steve\_Wright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_Wright)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2001, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fred-hoyle-dead/77559/6 "2001-08-22T16:57:51Z")
**Podkayne** , I agree with you. Fred Hoyle had a lot of way-out ideas, and he was often wrong, but he was wrong in _the right way_ - the way which made people examine and understand _why_ he was wrong. He’ll be missed. (And, as an unapologetic SF geek, I’ll add that I really enjoyed _The Black Cloud_ and _A for Andromeda_, too.) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Bad\_Astronomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f05b48/32.png) [@The\_Bad\_Astronomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Bad_Astronomer)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2001, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fred-hoyle-dead/77559/7 "2001-08-22T19:01:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Steve Wright \* > \*\ ***Podkayne** , I agree with you. Fred Hoyle had a lot of way-out ideas, and he was often wrong, but he was wrong in _the right way_ - the way which made people examine and understand _why_ he was wrong. > \*\* I don’t think I agree here. His adamant adherence to the wacky panspermia ideas-- that AIDS, the flu and other diseases come from space-- with absolutely no evidence to back this up whatsoever, was antithetical to the scientific method. It made splashy news, and no doubt will for a while to come, but it ain’t science. I think science needs heretics, of course, but not necessarily kooks. I don’t see how they help, but I sure do see how the hurt. I am sorry to see such a great man has died; his paper with Burbidge, Burbidge and Fowler was a landmark not just for astronomy but for physics (detailing how stars fuse elements to produce energy), but I have also been sorry for years that he hung his hat on such ridiculous claims. ---
**Author:** ![Podkayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Podkayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Podkayne)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2001, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fred-hoyle-dead/77559/8 "2001-08-22T19:30:44Z")
Well, if nothing else, Hoyle disproves the whole idea that scientists are all part of some self-congratulatory old boy’s network. Hoyle’s done great work, and, though he’s always been a bit of his iconoclast, he got a wide audience for non-mainstream ideas that still had some observational support. Would we be as confident of the Big Bang if not for steady-state gadflys like Hoyle doing their damndest to deflate it? However, since he started off on this ridiculous panspermia crap, he’s been largely ignored. I think it’s a gorgeous example of how science works, how it has no idols. Ask the elder statesmen of astronomy about him, and they just shake their heads sadly. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2001, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fred-hoyle-dead/77559/9 "2001-08-22T22:05:37Z")
GERMS IN SPAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACE!! ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2001, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fred-hoyle-dead/77559/10 "2001-08-23T13:51:41Z")
This really isn’t my area but\* I thought\* I caught something on the radio quite recently that suggested ‘we’ had just discovered (in the past two or three weeks) some organism living at about 40,000’ , a la Fred Hoyle (well, not himself but…) - anyone help on whether I misheard that ? ---
**Author:** ![Podkayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Podkayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Podkayne)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2001, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fred-hoyle-dead/77559/11 "2001-08-23T14:02:20Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by London\_Calling \* > This really isn’t my area but_ I thought\* I caught something on the radio quite recently that suggested ‘we’ had just discovered (in the past two or three weeks) some organism living at about 40,000’ , a la Fred Hoyle (well, not himself but…) - anyone help on whether I misheard that ? Yup. [Bacteria in the upper atmosphere.](http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/planetearth/alien_bacteria_001127.html) **Wickramasinghe & Hoyle:** Aha! Bacteria in the upper atmosphere! This proves that bacteria fall to Earth from spaaaaaace! **Everyone else:** Uh, but, your “space” bacteria are indistinguishable from terrestrial bacteria! **Wickramasinghe & Hoyle:** Of course! That’s because all life on Earth came from spaaaaace! **Everyone else:** :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Sea\_Sorbust](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Sea\_Sorbust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sea_Sorbust)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2001, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fred-hoyle-dead/77559/12 "2001-08-23T19:01:13Z")
Surely in these days of open-mindedness and rapidly advancing scientific understand and technological abilities, no one would simply accept such a preposterous theory as the “Big Bang” without MUCH more evidence than (arcane) mathematics and heavily inferential astronomical observations! Yet many seem to do just that! Further: How, with the very recent advances in knowledge Micro- and Astro-Biology, is it possible for ANY one to deny the possibility of encysted micro-organisms?? (Even if those organisms are of Earthly origin, circa 1-2 billion years ago?) I think that those who make fun of the likes of F. Hoyle are the TRUE “ignoramousii”. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Phobos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Phobos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phobos)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2001, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fred-hoyle-dead/77559/13 "2001-08-23T19:37:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sea Sorbust \* > Surely in these days of open-mindedness and rapidly advancing scientific understand and technological abilities, no one would simply accept such a preposterous theory as the “Big Bang” without MUCH more evidence than (arcane) mathematics and heavily inferential astronomical observations! Yet many seem to do just that! Big Bang Theory best fits the current evidence. Other theories fail on questions where the BB succeeds. [http://itss.raytheon.com/cafe/qadir/q401.html](http://itss.raytheon.com/cafe/qadir/q401.html) If new data are obtained & confirmed, then the theory can be revised as necessary. > [@](#): > > Further: How, with the very recent advances in knowledge Micro- and Astro-Biology, is it possible for ANY one to deny the possibility of encysted micro-organisms?? Micro-organisms that encyst are well known on Earth. (Giardia anyone? :eek:) The thing is, none are known to come from outer space. And what advances in astro-biology are you talking about? There are no known life forms beyond Earth (yet) so there’s no real way to advance knowledge about E.T. life (other than to speculate on possibilities and to test how Earth-life fares in space). > [@](#): > > I think that those who make fun of the likes of F. Hoyle are the TRUE “ignoramousii”. ☹ I agree that it’s impolite to poke fun (especially at someone who just died) but I think **The Bad Astronomer** said it well…some of Hoyle’s ideas were well accepted but other ideas were unsupported. ---
**Author:** ![Sea\_Sorbust](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Sea\_Sorbust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sea_Sorbust)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2001, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fred-hoyle-dead/77559/14 "2001-08-23T20:23:07Z")
My appologies, dear Phobos. I just finished a lengthy and (IMHO) well-thought-out response to your post. (I refuted yours, politely but firmly.) Alas I forgot to enter my password and the Board’s software not only told me that I was an oaf, but lost my entire (draft) reply. I quit! Your Board’s (pitiful, brutish) software wins: I don’t have the hour or so to spend re-drafting my rebuttal. :eek: Nonetheless, my reply was sufficient to defend the honor of F. Hoyle and place (I hope) the odious “B.B.Theory” where it belongs: As a **theory!** Thank you, however, for taking the time to carefully reply to my earlier post. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2001, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fred-hoyle-dead/77559/15 "2001-08-23T20:29:25Z")
Cheers for the link, Podkayne 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Podkayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Podkayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Podkayne)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2001, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fred-hoyle-dead/77559/16 "2001-08-23T20:54:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sea Sorbust \* > Nonetheless, my reply was sufficient to defend the honor of F. Hoyle and place (I hope) the odious “B.B.Theory” where it belongs: As a \*\*theory! You know, if Fred Hoyle was around, he could probably tell you what “theory” means in science, and why there’s nothing better than a theory in science, that theories are never proved. Whatever one thinks of Hoyle’s decline in his sunset years, he at least understood the scientific method. ---
**Author:** ![Sea\_Sorbust](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Sea\_Sorbust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sea_Sorbust)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2001, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fred-hoyle-dead/77559/17 "2001-08-23T21:45:30Z")
The “Big Banger” **Theory** , would contend Hoyle, I suspect, is best left just that: **A theory,** to be taken or left by individuals—to be accepted or rejected as each sees fit. I am reminded of the **“Continuum Hypothesis”** upon which almost all of modern mathematical analysis is founded. Some mathematicians, however, don’t believe in it; they progress in mathematics as if it didn’t exist. It is, after all, just a **hypothesis!** ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2001, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fred-hoyle-dead/77559/18 "2001-08-24T00:34:49Z")
You do not understand what a scientific theory is. It is not something “to be taken or left by individuals—to be accepted or rejected as each sees fit”; i.e., a guess or an opinion. A scientific theory is an explanatory model which ties together many different phenomena and is well supported by many different lines of evidence. Major theories tend to be the foundations of their respective fields of science; e.g., the germ theory of disease in medicine, the atomic theory of matter in chemistry and physics, the theory of plate tectonics in geology, the theories of relativity and quantum mechanics in physics, the theory of evolution in biology, and the Big Bang theory in cosmology and astronomy. ---
**Author:** ![Phobos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Phobos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phobos)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2001, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fred-hoyle-dead/77559/19 "2001-08-24T14:26:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sea Sorbust \* > \*\*My appologies, dear Phobos. I just finished a lengthy and (IMHO) well-thought-out response to your post. …lost my entire (draft) reply. > > Nonetheless, my reply was sufficient to defend the honor of F. Hoyle and place (I hope) the odious “B.B.Theory” where it belongs: As a **theory!** > \*\* Sorry you lost your rebuttal…I would have enjoyed the debate. (Perhaps you could start a new thread to debate B.B. Theory…or look through previous threads on the subject.) Anyway, as **Podkayne** and **MEBuckner** indicated, Theories are the ultimate goal of science. Hoyle defended the Steady State Theory of cosmology but B.B. Theory is currently the most widely accepted model among the experts that examine the evidence. Certainly, there is still a lot of research going on in cosmology (e.g., [Microwave Anisotropy Probe](http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/)) and B.B. T. is open to modification as warranted. ---
**Author:** ![Sea\_Sorbust](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Sea\_Sorbust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sea_Sorbust)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2001, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fred-hoyle-dead/77559/20 "2001-08-24T15:28:05Z")
**To MEBuckner:** You are incorrect; I **do** understand what scientific theory is. Remember, please, the Rutherford model (a well-accepted theory) of the atom. If everyone took Rutherford’s theory as near-Gospel, as near-dogma, who would have _contradicted and dismissed_ it? (The Rutherford theory did not “evolve” [into a better theory]; it is much more accurate to say that it “disintegrated”.) An even better (and nearly overwhelming) example is Euclid’s theory of geometry. “Take it or leave it?” **No one** denied Euclidean Geometry for many centuries until finally someone (actually two someones) decided to “leave it” and produced NonEuclidean Geometry. As to Why? it is a better example: Without NonEuclidean Geom., where would modern Einsteinian “relativity” be? Or: Would it even exist at all?? The “leave it” part of scientific theory is, perhaps, the most important part since without it science (and “technology”) would be stuck in an perpetually unchanging intellectual quagmire: **Forever unchanging!** (As they were, by the way, Aristotealianism under the highly static rule of the Roman Church.) **To Phobos:** I’m happy that you’re sorry that I lost my reply to the B.Board’s software; with my little experience elsewhere on this Board, I expected a reaction of “LOL” and applause—“another voice of disent stiffled!”. I thank you for not being a boor and I, too, wish we could have finished the discussion. Alas, I am up to my eyeballs in fending off many (near-boorish and quasi-Luddite) attacks in another thread. ☹ You, too, are, alas, incorrect: Both **Podkayne** and **MEBuckner** (see above) are wrong in their beliefs. Podkayne says > [@](#): > > “…there’s nothing better than a theory in science…”. But there is:\*\* Fact and **(ultimately)** Truth\*\* (if you can ever get that far!) are both **much** better than a theory! You, yourself, make the ghastly statement: > [@](#): > > “Theories are the ultimate goal of science.” Did you really mean such a thing? Or were you merely defending the honor of more-ancient, more-senior Posters to this Board (against a novice like me)?? Surely: **Truth, understand, and comprehension** are the ultimate goals of science! No? 😉 [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fred-hoyle-dead/77559.md?page=2)