# Fred Phelps/Westboro Baptist to picket funerals of Arizona shooting victims **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 10, 2011, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fred-phelps-westboro-baptist-to-picket-funerals-of-arizona-shooting-victims/567051 "2011-01-10T01:21:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2011, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fred-phelps-westboro-baptist-to-picket-funerals-of-arizona-shooting-victims/567051/101 "2011-01-12T18:26:13Z")
> [@Morgyn](#): > > Someone SO needs to show up at their next picketing with a sign that says “God Hates Adulterous Fornicating Whores and their Bastard Seed.” I’m thinking a speaker system with a “gay phone sex” spiel describing the speaker’s washboard abs and eight-inch cock and muscular ass, heavily interspersed with “You **know** you want it, **Fred** …” personalization. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2011, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fred-phelps-westboro-baptist-to-picket-funerals-of-arizona-shooting-victims/567051/102 "2011-01-12T18:29:01Z")
> [@Gedd](#): > > Sounds like one of those murder stories where they most hated guy in town is killed, yet mysteriously no one around saw anything happen. > > “So Mr. Phelps was beaten, stabbed, punched, and kicked to death twelve feet from all 218 of you. Did anyone see who did it?” > “Nope.” > “Not me.” > “I was looking over there.” > “Didn’t hear a thing.” > “A wizard did it.” “All I know is I heard he was kinda feelin’ down, talkin’ ‘bout endin’ it all…” ---
**Author:** ![Gedd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gedd/32/4938_2.png) [@Gedd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gedd)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2011, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fred-phelps-westboro-baptist-to-picket-funerals-of-arizona-shooting-victims/567051/103 "2011-01-12T18:35:38Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > I would not lift a finger to save him. If that makes me evil, so be it. My POV is that it would be evil to \*wish \*him harm, but \*not helping \*is fine. If you did find yourself in a situation where literally “lifting a finger” would save him, plenty of Good Samaritan Laws say you don’t have to. In Minnesota and Vermont you might be fined, but again that’s only if there were witnesses and someone actually wanted to press charges. ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2011, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fred-phelps-westboro-baptist-to-picket-funerals-of-arizona-shooting-victims/567051/104 "2011-01-12T19:56:51Z")
> [@Baker](#): > > They picketed the church I am now a member of on Christmas Eve just this year. Grace Church Topeka ? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2011, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fred-phelps-westboro-baptist-to-picket-funerals-of-arizona-shooting-victims/567051/105 "2011-01-12T20:45:33Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Actually, the last time i checked the WBC’s website (admittedly, quite a few years back), they claimed to be strict believers in Predestination, the Calvinist notion that God predetermines who is and is not saved, and that none of a person’s “works” or actions in this life can influence whether they end up in heaven or in hell. Then what’s the point in picketing? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2011, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fred-phelps-westboro-baptist-to-picket-funerals-of-arizona-shooting-victims/567051/106 "2011-01-12T20:50:35Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Then what’s the point in picketing? I agree with a previous link, which essentially said that they don’t believe anything they say, and the whole point to picketing is to create potential lawsuits, so they can sue a police dept. for denying a permit to picket, or an individual or landowner for “abuse”. They are all lawyers, and get their income from lawsuits. ---
**Author:** ![malkavia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malkavia/32/5621_2.png) [@malkavia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/malkavia)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2011, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fred-phelps-westboro-baptist-to-picket-funerals-of-arizona-shooting-victims/567051/107 "2011-01-12T20:54:01Z")
It appears that they have agreed not to picket in exchange for airtime from two radio stations. [Link](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/12/westboro-baptist-church-arizona-funerals_n_808088.html) Since when do we negotiate with terrorists? Disgusting. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2011, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fred-phelps-westboro-baptist-to-picket-funerals-of-arizona-shooting-victims/567051/108 "2011-01-12T20:54:03Z")
> [@Morgyn](#): > > Someone SO needs to show up at their next picketing with a sign that says “God Hates Adulterous Fornicating Whores and their Bastard Seed.” Someone needs to show up with signs saying God loves everyone, even you. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2011, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fred-phelps-westboro-baptist-to-picket-funerals-of-arizona-shooting-victims/567051/109 "2011-01-12T21:04:47Z")
> [@Ann\_Onimous](#): > > Speaking as a Christian, I don’t believe the god he professes to follow is the same God I follow. Since I can’t go and counter protest or minister to him, the best I can do is pray for his soul. While you are praying, perhaps you can ask for him to stop being hateful before he dies? Like when it would do some good? ---
**Author:** ![Gedd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gedd/32/4938_2.png) [@Gedd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gedd)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2011, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fred-phelps-westboro-baptist-to-picket-funerals-of-arizona-shooting-victims/567051/110 "2011-01-12T21:57:06Z")
There are just way too many spots in the New Testament where it says things like: Don’t judge others Don’t pretend to be better than others Don’t show off when you are being righteous and I think there are a few things along the lines of: Love your enemies God loves everyone Maybe he reads a different version than I do. More practice, less preach Crap! I’m judging right now! ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2011, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fred-phelps-westboro-baptist-to-picket-funerals-of-arizona-shooting-victims/567051/111 "2011-01-12T21:58:21Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Then what’s the point in picketing? Well, first of all, i don’t expect too much doctrinal consistency from Phelps and his troop. But this has always been a thorny issue for Calvinists. After all, if your salvation is not at all dependent upon your own actions, what are your motives to be a good person and obey God’s laws? Well, your motive is that God requires obedience, whether or not it brings salvation. Massachusetts Puritan John Cotton, in his famous “Treatise on the Covenant of Grace,” noted that, just because obeying God’s law would not determine the fate of your eternal soul, you were nonetheless obligated to be obedient. > [@](#): > > If any therefore shall accuse the Doctrine of the Covenant of free Grace of Antinomianism, and say, it teacheth men freedome from the Law of Moses; and if they commit any sin, they plead they are not bound unto the Law; we see how false such an aspersion would be; for all the people of God know, that the Lord is an avenger of every such wickedness. There is none under a Covenant of Grace that dare allow himself in any sin; for if a man should negligently commit any sin, the Lord will school him throughly, and make him sadly to apprehend how he hath made bold with the treasures of the grace of God. > > \ > > So that the children of the Covenant of grace will only tell you that they are free from the Covenant of the Law, but not from the Commandment of it. The Puritans were interesting folk, because they were Calvinists, but they were also intelligent and intellectual people who couldn’t quite square their belief in predestination with their belief in human free will and human reason. The idea that rational man could have no influence over his own salvation, and that indeed he could never even be sure whether he was saved or damned, was very troubling to them, and their attempts to walk a line between faith and reason made them a rather anxious lot. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2011, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fred-phelps-westboro-baptist-to-picket-funerals-of-arizona-shooting-victims/567051/112 "2011-01-12T23:28:58Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Well, first of all, i don’t expect too much doctrinal consistency from Phelps and his troop. > > But this has always been a thorny issue for Calvinists. After all, if your salvation is not at all dependent upon your own actions, what are your motives to be a good person and obey God’s laws? Well, your motive is that God requires obedience, whether or not it brings salvation. Massachusetts Puritan John Cotton, in his famous “Treatise on the Covenant of Grace,” noted that, just because obeying God’s law would not determine the fate of your eternal soul, you were nonetheless obligated to be obedient. But then if I’m going to hell anyway, why bother? If I am doomed anyway, no matter what I do or don’t do, I may as well just go wild and have my “fun” while I can. > [@mhendo](#): > > The Puritans were interesting folk, because they were Calvinists, but they were also intelligent and intellectual people who couldn’t quite square their belief in predestination with their belief in human free will and human reason. The idea that rational man could have no influence over his own salvation, and that indeed he could never even be sure whether he was saved or damned, was very troubling to them, and their attempts to walk a line between faith and reason made them a rather anxious lot. Yeah, I can see where they would have a concern, since it doesn’t seem to make much sense. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fred-phelps-westboro-baptist-to-picket-funerals-of-arizona-shooting-victims/567051/113 "2011-01-13T01:39:18Z")
Apparently either whatever angel they still hath served or else some well placed death threats have made them cancel at least one of the picketings: [Church agrees to not protest slain child’s funeral](http://www.kansas.com/2011/01/11/1669500/lawmakers-to-head-off-picketing.html) ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fred-phelps-westboro-baptist-to-picket-funerals-of-arizona-shooting-victims/567051/114 "2011-01-13T02:25:06Z")
> [@drachillix](#): > > I am actually mildly shocked that none of them have found themselves on the wrong end of a long range rifle shot. And if that were to happen he should be charged with stealing a bullet, and the family made to pay restitution. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fred-phelps-westboro-baptist-to-picket-funerals-of-arizona-shooting-victims/567051/115 "2011-01-13T02:38:12Z")
Eh, Fred Phelps and his bunch are either mentally ill or daemon-possessed (this coming from a Christian who usually are skeptical of claims of daemonic possession). ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fred-phelps-westboro-baptist-to-picket-funerals-of-arizona-shooting-victims/567051/116 "2011-01-13T03:06:12Z")
Fred is 81 and that’s in Crazy Years which you’d think would add a decade or so, so he can’t last forever. I wonder if the family is going to continue to band together as a Crazy Roadside Cannibal Clan when he dies or if they’ll go their own ways and maybe let a couple of the younger generation have something remotely akin to normal lives. Shirley would seem the most likely successor in some ways, but Fred’s a misogynist who encourages wife beating so I doubt she would be. His son Nate, an apostate from the group and born again atheist, is peddling a memoir. I hope it sells because if it’s at all well written- and no trouble getting ghost writers if Nate can’t write- it could be a great book. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Man\_With\_The\_Golden\_Gun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dc4da7/32.png) [@The\_Man\_With\_The\_Golden\_Gun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Man_With_The_Golden_Gun)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fred-phelps-westboro-baptist-to-picket-funerals-of-arizona-shooting-victims/567051/117 "2011-01-13T03:13:48Z")
> [@malkavia](#): > > It appears that they have agreed not to picket in exchange for airtime from two radio stations. [Link](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/12/westboro-baptist-church-arizona-funerals_n_808088.html) > > Since when do we negotiate with terrorists? Disgusting. Better Phelps on some radio station than picketing a young girl’s funeral. Yeah, it’s negotiation with an asshole, but sometimes it’s for the better, I say. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fred-phelps-westboro-baptist-to-picket-funerals-of-arizona-shooting-victims/567051/118 "2011-01-13T03:20:50Z")
Unlike America we have laws against hate speech in Canada. These idiots could find themselves in some deep shit. And that’s exactly how I hope it works out, to tell you the truth. ---
**Author:** ![sisu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@sisu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sisu)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fred-phelps-westboro-baptist-to-picket-funerals-of-arizona-shooting-victims/567051/119 "2011-01-13T03:25:48Z")
Phelps is using the “outside world as the enemy” tactic to control his acolytes. He is a psychopath who must control his followers anyway he can. Government have always used evil outsiders [rightly or wrongly] to convince us of the need for insulation. He is just using a very old and proven control method. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fred-phelps-westboro-baptist-to-picket-funerals-of-arizona-shooting-victims/567051/120 "2011-01-13T06:12:31Z")
[Addicted to Hate](http://www.blank.org/addict/) > [@Shagnasty](#): > > I still suspect there is some type of an inside joke going on the the Fred Phelps camp. He started his career as a very prominent civil rights attorney fighting Jim Crow laws and he isn’t dumb by any measure. The only way that could be reconciled with what we see today is either that he is trying to make people with views similar to the ones he espouses look ridiculous or if he is just a professional troll. It is very strange but there has to be a put-on somewhere. That’s something of a [stretch](http://www.blank.org/addict/chapter6.html) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fred-phelps-westboro-baptist-to-picket-funerals-of-arizona-shooting-victims/567051.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fred-phelps-westboro-baptist-to-picket-funerals-of-arizona-shooting-victims/567051.md?page=7)