Free birth control lowers abortion rate dramatically

[Saraya]

@Voyager

The majority Western religion has been condemning premarital sex for about 2,000 years - how has that worked out? You think not talking about sex in schools somehow keeps kids from finding out about it, especially in our culture? That’s ridiculous. We already know teaching abstinence doesn’t work. And thinking that a condom all of a sudden makes girls (or boys) who weren’t interested in sex interested is even more absurd. Guess what? We have a hefty sex drive. The unavailability of condoms for most of history didn’t lead to chastity now, did it?
I’ll take as much or more sex and fewer pregnancies myself. It is much better for society.

You seem to be stuck on the party line. This belief that people don’t talk about it is untrue. Kids ‘figure’ things out, sure, you did, I did, our parents did and people in the 1940s (or whatever Golden Oldie decade was ‘the good ol days’) weren’t saints either. But somethings you’re meant to learn on your own. It’s how far you take it and how you respect (or don’t respect it) is the key, and that’s where parents need to play a huge role.

There’s a real nasty pseudo-psychological ‘diagnosis’ going around by armchair enthusiasts who feel that repression results in some later case of explosive response. And it’s all so conveniently contrived.

The reality is that those meltdowns or erratic behaviors by people are their issues and there’s alone. Other people are the same way and they don’t go around freaking out.

If a boy touched me in highschool, you can be damn sure he was thinking ‘this is great’ and ‘should I be doing this? Is it okay?’ Can we say the same about kids these days? Do they know any better? Or maybe they don’t think about part two, maybe all he thinks is ‘this is great!’ And why do you think he’s not considering part two? Because there’s nothing to worry about. As far as he’s concerned he is a professional. He knows all he needs to know about sex from school and he has a condom. And if things were to go bad, he’s got another life line with the birth control.

How’s that working out for us these days?

@Voyager

I have two daughters, now both in their 20s. No abortions, no pregnancies. How did we do it? By making damn sure they knew about birth control long before it was necessary. (My wife has a masters in reproductive physiology. so she’s the expert.) If every parent did that we wouldn’t need to teach it in the schools, but they don’t.

This has less to do with shoving a liberal mindset down their throats, and more to you just being good parents who watched their children and stayed active in their lives and led by good example.
Unless you’re suggesting that you were terrible and neglected them constantly.
Then maybe you are right all along!

@Voyager

You neglected giving your kids information in your list - and being realistic. That led to our kids being open with us. It has worked out damn well.
I’d say that anyone who forbids their kids from learning about birth control is a bad parent, just like a parent who wants to pretend crime does not exist and doesn’t teach a kid about being street smart is a bad parent. You don’t have to just hope for the best - you can try to make sure worst case does not happen.

And along that logic, then the same mother wouldn’t even talk to her daughter about having her periods.
You forget that abstinence is not a mentality, it’s an act.

Good parenting. Birth control or no birth control you can’t substitute good parenting. And likewise you cannot plan for everything.
If you think ‘birth control is a plan’..well that’s just dying to be a bumper sticker isn’t it?

[hajario]

Sex is not immoral.

[Saraya]

@silenus

That’s it. It’s because we’re all SINNERS! :rolleyes:

I didn’t know you had to be religious to have morals…

Did you think that?

[JackieLikesVariety]

increasing sexual ‘awareness’ or giving them a free pass ala birth control, is surely not an answer either

I’m not sure what this means, especially “awareness”. are you against sex education? I mean real education, not the “abstinence only” classes.

and “free pass” - what?? you think someone having sex should have to …what, pay for it by risking pregnancy? by having children?

[Voyager]

@Saraya

Why is the amount of additional sexual relations a direct result of the reduction in abortions - why cannot you not have both.

I’m fine with teaching kids to avoid having sex. I’m not fine with pretending is is going to work. Why not? Our very understandable evolutionary sex urge predates both the concepts of marriage and chastity.

This is about responsibility - if people don’t exercise it..what can we expect?

Hey, people shouldn’t break into your house either. But pretending that a program of anti-burglary education means you don’t have to lock your door is stupid.

To answer the question, I’d take the million less abortions.
The additional sexual acts results in either :

Pregnancy : Parents will probably raise it (meaning mother’s parents) or goes to adoption.
Sexual disease : Lethal or non lethal, that’s your fault, live with it.

Or it could result in neither of these things if the kids use the proper protection.

But if kids are old enough to have sex then they’re old enough to at least carry some of the burden of their choices - and increasing sexual ‘awareness’ or giving them a free pass ala birth control, is surely not an answer either.

In other words, keep them from protection so the sluts of either sex will be punished by disease and pregnancy. Nice.

The majority of our modern problems start with a lack of moral retention. We’re so backwards these days on things we are all twisted around.
Our communities need cohesion. If you and I argue all the time over semantics instead of working together to instill a good baseline of morals, then it’s all for naught and while you or I may win the debate, our kids will continuously suffer.

Please give me a time and place in history that was a moral paradise. Remember Shakespeare married Anne Hathaway because he knocked her up.
Reducing unwanted pregnancies is a really good thing. Blathering about morals does not do it. Apparently free birth control does.

[Voyager]

@Saraya

I didn’t know you had to be religious to have morals…

Did you think that?

Is premarital sex immoral?

[Thudlow_Boink]

@Sicks_Ate

Holy shit:

Scary.

I’m surprised at your surprise. I thought it was pretty well known that the Catholic Church is against artificial birth control. They’re not going to support something they believe to be immoral just because it saves money.

[Sicks_Ate]

@Thudlow_Boink

I’m surprised at your surprise. I thought it was pretty well known that the Catholic Church is against artificial birth control. They’re not going to support something they believe to be immoral just because it saves money.

It wasn’t surprise, exactly. I know the Church’s stance on birth control; I guess when I got the part of the quote where using a rubber is blatantly compared to outright infanticide and organ harvesting, I was just taken aback.

One of those things where you KNOW what they will say, but when they actually SAY it hits harder.

[Saraya]

@JackieLikesVariety

I’m not sure what this means, especially “awareness”. are you against sex education? I mean real education, not the “abstinence only” classes.

and “free pass” - what?? you think someone having sex should have to …what, pay for it by risking pregnancy? by having children?

Sex education in schools yes.. nothing parents should teach their kids, should be at the hands of any institute.
I don’t even care if they have parents whom never tell their kids about sex, it’s not the place of some establishment - before you ask..no not even if it prevented a pregnancy.

If 2% of the parenting population decides NOT to tell their children, we MUST respect that right. Even if you and I think it’s horrific…

But by awareness, yes I meant sex education combined with talking to your children at home.

Free pass suggests like I said in my post that despite what you tell them, that all goes out the window when they’re convinced they have the protection to do whatever the want.

I think what anti abortionists get wrong is that people who advocate free birth control and condom use, are also whispering to kids to go out and screw the whole town.

Obviously that’s not the case..well at least not usually.

[ITR_champion]

@Implicit

Maybe you should read the study. The upfront costs of IUDs, supplied free to the participants, are $800-$1000. Everyone in the United States has most definitely not had access to IUDs for free.

What the study is really saying, if the article is correct, is that in a certain sample of women of whom the majority use IUDs or hormonal birth control, the pregnancy rates are lower than among women overall. That’s something of a no-brainer.

It’s unclear how such a study is supposed to prove that providing free IUDs and hormonal birth control pills actuallys lowers pregnancy or abortion rates. Any 7th-grade science student knows that to establish a cause-effect relationship, you need to have a control and experimental group and to compare the results between those two groups. Without a control group, you cannot know what’s causing an effect even if one is observed.

Despite what certain interested parties keep claiming, there’s no evidence that lack of access to birth control causes anyone to get pregnant in this country. Indeed the rate at which poor women use IUDs is the same as for middle class women, and only a tiny bit lower than the rate for rich women. (Cite, table 11, page 28) In all income groups it’s below 6%, which suggests that the vast majority of women simply choose not to use an IUD. Table E from the same cite shows the reasons women gave for not using birth control when they had an unexpected pregnancy; cost didn’t even make the list.

[Novelty_Bobble]

@Saraya

What’s alarming is the belief that talking about sex to kids(at a younger age particularly), giving out condoms and birth control is going to magically make them want to have sex less(or more realistically, just not got pregnant).
For most kids that’s a one way ticket to party time with no limits and no repercussions. It’s like legalizing weed. Moderation would not be the cornerstone of such a practice.
Good parenting, honesty and proper values are all you can do…like anything with parenting - the rest you hope for the best.
The worst thing to do, is let schools and the government raise your kids when you aren’t around .

Wow, I’ve seen into your mind and quite honestly find it incomprehensibly scary. Listen, there is nothing that will make people *want *sex less. it is what we do, it is why we are. The best we can do (and the only morally responsible approach) is to educate them about their bodies so they can make informed and responsible choices when they inevitably do what their hormones compel them to.

My children have been asking questions about babies and sex since they could talk. It is a fundamental bodily function like eating, sleeping and breathing. i would not hesitate to educate them about any of those, damn sure I won’t shirk my responsibility regarding sex. Any adult failing to do the same is failing their children, waiting until they are nearly teenagers is far, far too late.

[Novelty_Bobble]

@Saraya

If 2% of the parenting population decides NOT to tell their children, we MUST respect that right. Even if you and I think it’s horrific…

Bullshit, and dangerous bullshit at that.

Should we respect the right of 2% of the parenting population to NOT tell their children that 2+2=4?
Or do you think that is something the school should step in and do?

[Voyager]

@Saraya

You seem to be stuck on the party line. This belief that people don’t talk about it is untrue. Kids ‘figure’ things out, sure, you did, I did, our parents did and people in the 1940s (or whatever Golden Oldie decade was ‘the good ol days’) weren’t saints either. But somethings you’re meant to learn on your own. It’s how far you take it and how you respect (or don’t respect it) is the key, and that’s where parents need to play a huge role.

Sure they are going to talk about it. That’s why not having classes is not very smart. Kids may not talk about sex accurately, so let’s make sure they get the real story.

There’s a real nasty pseudo-psychological ‘diagnosis’ going around by armchair enthusiasts who feel that repression results in some later case of explosive response. And it’s all so conveniently contrived.

The reality is that those meltdowns or erratic behaviors by people are their issues and there’s alone. Other people are the same way and they don’t go around freaking out.

I’m not exactly sure what you are saying here, but it sounds like you are denying the existence of sex drive. People may or may not act on it, but it is there.

If a boy touched me in highschool, you can be damn sure he was thinking ‘this is great’ and ‘should I be doing this? Is it okay?’ Can we say the same about kids these days? Do they know any better? Or maybe they don’t think about part two, maybe all he thinks is ‘this is great!’ And why do you think he’s not considering part two? Because there’s nothing to worry about. As far as he’s concerned he is a professional. He knows all he needs to know about sex from school and he has a condom. And if things were to go bad, he’s got another life line with the birth control.

And if he didn’t have sex ed he wouldn’t think about sex. Pull the other one, it has bells on. And girls may not be passive victims of aggressive males. If this guy is interested, and the girl agrees, I’d much prefer they use a condom. I’d even more prefer she was taking the pill or using an IUD. Then accidents wouldn’t happen.

How’s that working out for us these days?

I went to high school in the '60s. Guess what - there was sex going on. There were pregnant girls in my junior high.

This has less to do with shoving a liberal mindset down their throats, and more to you just being good parents who watched their children and stayed active in their lives and led by good example.
Unless you’re suggesting that you were terrible and neglected them constantly.
Then maybe you are right all along!

We mostly taught our kids how to reason for themselves, so they both turned out to be liberal atheists. The best way of staying active in your kids lives is to not be condemning. Saying that anyone having sex before marriage is immoral is not the way to do that. Especially because my wife and I didn’t live by that rule, and think it is a pretty stupid rule anyhow.
I won’t say much more about my kids because I don’t want to brag.

And along that logic, then the same mother wouldn’t even talk to her daughter about having her periods.
You forget that abstinence is not a mentality, it’s an act.

An act (or lack of an act) our very genes rebel against. There is a variation, and some people don’t have much sex drive. Let’s not let them tell the rest of us what we should do. If Paul had a normal sex drive Western society would be a lot more sane.

Good parenting. Birth control or no birth control you can’t substitute good parenting. And likewise you cannot plan for everything.
If you think ‘birth control is a plan’..well that’s just dying to be a bumper sticker isn’t it?

Birth control is good parenting. Pretending that your little angel isn’t going to do that horrible thing is not good parenting. Birth control is an excellent plan, and, as the study showed, it works. Unlike hoping for abstinence.
All of human history shows that sex makes us crazy. Think about Antony and Cleopatra, and then tell me that it makes sense to expect all kids to resist these urges.

[Saraya]

@Voyager

I’m fine with teaching kids to avoid having sex. I’m not fine with pretending is is going to work. Why not? Our very understandable evolutionary sex urge predates both the concepts of marriage and chastity.

If you’re going to open the can that sex is natural then be prepared to swallow that sex is natural as a means of reproduction, not because it ‘feels good.’ That’s not a compelling argument or at least respectfully it shouldn’t be.

@Voyager

Hey, people shouldn’t break into your house either. But pretending that a program of anti-burglary education means you don’t have to lock your door is stupid.

I was going to reverse this one on you, but then I thought that actually..an alarm would be more useful than a locked door and then on that I forgot what I was going to say…

@Voyager

Or it could result in neither of these things if the kids use the proper protection.

Kids wouldn’t have to use any if they didn’t have sex… not sure why this is hard to grasp. You seem to think that it’s inevitable kids are going to screw like monkeys, so give them all the tools that way it’s safe. I said, tell them about it, nurture them and also let them know it’s NOT a good idea till they’re older. Then if it happens, it happens, but that was their choice and it’s life. You on the other hand want to give them all the tools and hope that your ‘talks’ are enough to discourage them from going and doing it.

That’s just as folly as what you’re suggesting about pro abstinence.

@Voyager

In other words, keep them from protection so the sluts of either sex will be punished by disease and pregnancy. Nice.

Punished? If you want to see it that way. We all have to pay for our mistakes.

@Voyager

Reducing unwanted pregnancies is a really good thing. Blathering about morals does not do it. Apparently free birth control does.

Wrong. Free birth control gives people more of a moral license to have sex with less respect for what it means, and to treat it more casually than it needs to be (people already do that enough…). That’s it.

It does not promise that they’ll actually use it, or remember to. In fact, it wouldn’t be a stretch to think that people who want to have reckless sexual relations will do so no matter what (as you’ve hinted at). Whether they take birth control seems to be more of a peace of mind thing for you so you can sleep better.

And I assume we’re still talking about younger people - because I’m not concerned about twenty somethings who are on birth control, because the guy likes to ejaculate inside rather than pulling out.

[Sicks_Ate]

@Saraya

If you’re going to open the can that sex is natural then be prepared to swallow… (snip)

Rather.

[Kearsen]

You do realize that some people can be against abortion in general and for contraception but maybe take issue with the word “free”? It isn’t free, right?

[Voyager]

@Saraya

Sex education in schools yes.. nothing parents should teach their kids, should be at the hands of any institute.
I don’t even care if they have parents whom never tell their kids about sex, it’s not the place of some establishment - before you ask..no not even if it prevented a pregnancy.

If 2% of the parenting population decides NOT to tell their children, we MUST respect that right. Even if you and I think it’s horrific…

Most schools allow parents to pull their kids out of sex ed. Are you saying that the 2% should prevent the other 98% from getting educated if their parents agree?
And teaching the facts of our sexuality is not different than teaching physics or biology or history. Of course teaching kids to screw randomly is wrong, as is teaching them that sex will always lead to horrible consequences or hellfire. Teach the facts - or do you think people are right to keep their kids from the facts.
Look what happened to Carrie’s mother.

But by awareness, yes I meant sex education combined with talking to your children at home.

No school ever objected to parents talking about it at home.

Free pass suggests like I said in my post that despite what you tell them, that all goes out the window when they’re convinced they have the protection to do whatever the want.

I think what anti abortionists get wrong is that people who advocate free birth control and condom use, are also whispering to kids to go out and screw the whole town.

Obviously that’s not the case..well at least not usually.

Actually, kids with education will know better what the risks are. Or did no boy ever think that pulling out in time was an effective birth control technique? What sex ed is is fighting ignorance. And that is good. Especially compared to protecting ignorance.

[Annie-Xmas]

IUD’s work by preventing implantation of an already fertilized egg (so do some birth control pills). Since anti-abortion people believe life begins at conception, how do IUD’s prevent abortions?

The anti-abortion group does not endorse IUD’s as a form of birth control. To them, preventing implatation is murder.

[TriPolar]

@ITR_champion

What the study is really saying, if the article is correct, is that in a certain sample of women of whom the majority use IUDs or hormonal birth control, the pregnancy rates are lower than among women overall. That’s something of a no-brainer.

Yes, and it’s also a no brainer that this will reduce the number of abortions and rate of abortions in the general population unless for some reason the rate of abortions in this sample increases. That’s exactly what the study intended to show.

It’s unclear how such a study is supposed to prove that providing free IUDs and hormonal birth control pills actuallys lowers pregnancy or abortion rates. Any 7th-grade science student knows that to establish a cause-effect relationship, you need to have a control and experimental group and to compare the results between those two groups. Without a control group, you cannot know what’s causing an effect even if one is observed.

Comparison to a control group isn’t the only means of establishing a cause-effect relationship, but it would be an effective means in this case, which is why they did it. They saw a reduction in pregnancies from the control group, which is the world at large.

Despite what certain interested parties keep claiming, there’s no evidence that lack of access to birth control causes anyone to get pregnant in this country. Indeed the rate at which poor women use IUDs is the same as for middle class women, and only a tiny bit lower than the rate for rich women. (Cite, table 11, page 28) In all income groups it’s below 6%, which suggests that the vast majority of women simply choose not to use an IUD. Table E from the same cite shows the reasons women gave for not using birth control when they had an unexpected pregnancy; cost didn’t even make the list.

First of all, no one claims lack of access to birth control causes anyone to get pregnant. It’s considered a factor in the process. And any woman who doesn’t get an IUD because she couldn’t afford it and ends up pregnant demonstrates that it is a factor. Secondly, the cost didn’t make the list because it wasn’t on the list. The reasons were limited to:

• ‘‘You did not expect to have sex.’’
• ‘‘You did not think you could get pregnant.’’
• ‘‘You didn’t really mind if you got pregnant.’’
• ‘‘You were worried about the side effects of birth control.’’
• ‘‘Your male partner did not want you to use a birth control method.’’
• ‘‘Your male partner did not want to use a birth control method.’’

[Saraya]

@Voyager

Sure they are going to talk about it. That’s why not having classes is not very smart. Kids may not talk about sex accurately, so let’s make sure they get the real story.

And see my comments on establishments. Are you trusting the real story to what..a bunch of experts whom are most often politically inclined in today’s schools to spread their agenda? You wouldn’t rather handle this yourself?

That’s your decision, but don’t make it for other parents.

@Voyager

I’m not exactly sure what you are saying here, but it sounds like you are denying the existence of sex drive. People may or may not act on it, but it is there.

Saying that abstinence again is not a mentality..it’s not a ‘omg I’ve never seen boobies till today and I’m thirty-four. I don’t know how to deal with it, so I’m going to go out and do something strange!’ A.k.a. ‘if you hate gay people you must be gay yourself’ line of ‘repressive’ thinking.

@Voyager

And if he didn’t have sex ed he wouldn’t think about sex. Pull the other one, it has bells on. And girls may not be passive victims of aggressive males. If this guy is interested, and the girl agrees, I’d much prefer they use a condom. I’d even more prefer she was taking the pill or using an IUD. Then accidents wouldn’t happen.

You’re right, the less you talk about sex, the less he’ll think about it. Of course he’ll think about it, but he won’t mull over it. I guarantee you, first day of sex ed, everyone’s embarrassed but as time passes and they find out how easy it is to ‘dodge’ the bullet - you know damn well what they’ll be doing after school. Wouldn’t you?

I can’t treat pregnancy as an accident like other ‘accidents.’ Because accidents often are a result of mistakes, and I wouldn’t say having a baby is a fmistake. I would rather say that having sex unnecessarily (maybe misuse of the word?) is the mistake. Our sixteen year old kids have no business being sexually active, just like we didn’t - and some of us dodged a bullet too, partially due to parenting, partially due to luck. Having ‘dodged’ it by being on the pill is still dodging it - the difference is the bullet didn’t find the mark.

But if he keeps his gun in his pants..well holster = safety.

@Voyager

We mostly taught our kids how to reason for themselves, so they both turned out to be liberal atheists. The best way of staying active in your kids lives is to not be condemning. Saying that anyone having sex before marriage is immoral is not the way to do that. Especially because my wife and I didn’t live by that rule, and think it is a pretty stupid rule anyhow.
I won’t say much more about my kids because I don’t want to brag.

They turned out liberal athiests..think you’re bragging ends right there.
Tit-for-tat.

@Voyager

Birth control is good parenting. Pretending that your little angel isn’t going to do that horrible thing is not good parenting. Birth control is an excellent plan, and, as the study showed, it works. Unlike hoping for abstinence.
All of human history shows that sex makes us crazy. Think about Antony and Cleopatra, and then tell me that it makes sense to expect all kids to resist these urges.

And with this last paragraph, this ends our little frenzy. It seems that you’re still stuck on the idea that abstinence is a ‘don’t ask don’t tell’ policy. And that it’s barely ever talked about, it’s taboo and the only time it really comes up is when the daughter is going out on a date and the dad starts shouting about ‘if you get pregnant I’ll cut it out of you or kick you out!!’ And maybe for Amish people or similar, it is.

For most families, abstinence is simply an act which is supported by a belief system - one which involves enough education about sex to give any teenager plenty they need to know. Where mothers talk about periods and fathers talk about wet dreams. “Son, daughter, if you ever need to talk, we’re here for you…” and etc.

Maybe that helps shed some light on it for you, maybe you’ll think a bit better of people who don’t want to leave the raising of their kids in the hands of a school and /or the fate of some ‘unwanted’ ‘accidental’ baby.

In the end, birth control for children is not proactive, it’s simply lazy. Don’t condemn the rest of society’s children because you took the easy approach or as you call it ‘prevention.’

P.S. How absurd is it that (put morals aside here…) we’re talking about birth control for children who aren’t legally of age to have sex!!! Perspective..we really need some!