# Free Blacks Kidnapped and Enslaved; Was This Really a Thing? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 5, 2014, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-blacks-kidnapped-and-enslaved-was-this-really-a-thing/682934 "2014-03-05T16:36:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-blacks-kidnapped-and-enslaved-was-this-really-a-thing/682934/41 "2014-03-06T04:16:47Z")
> [@](#): > > maybe you’ve got papers to show that you’re free but uh if someone is ballsy enough to physically trap you they are ballsy enough to burn said papers. Solomon Northup was born free, he did not have manumission papers to “prove” he was free. ---
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-blacks-kidnapped-and-enslaved-was-this-really-a-thing/682934/42 "2014-03-06T04:23:08Z")
[deleted 😃] ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-blacks-kidnapped-and-enslaved-was-this-really-a-thing/682934/43 "2014-03-06T04:26:54Z")
> [@AskNott](#): > > Slavery in the US did not end with the Emancipation. It continued in two ways. The larger way was **Peonage.** The other way, which continued into the 1960s, was **Convict Leases.** Slavery has not ended today. It still exists legally in the United States. The Thirteenth Amendment abolished slavery _“except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted”_. So prisoners who have been convicted can be ordered to work and have no legal right to refuse. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-blacks-kidnapped-and-enslaved-was-this-really-a-thing/682934/44 "2014-03-06T05:23:37Z")
(to everyone) Not everyone has seen _12 years a slave_ yet, please be careful with the spoilers. ---
**Author:** ![sisu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@sisu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sisu)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-blacks-kidnapped-and-enslaved-was-this-really-a-thing/682934/45 "2014-03-06T06:41:45Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > Just before the Civil War, a healthy slave was worth about the same as a car is today. > > Is the financial reward enough today that there are people who steal cars? And 'chop shops; to disassemble them and sell the parts, etc? > > Yes, it was very definitely worth it. Cool, being an Aussie I didn’t know, now I do ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-blacks-kidnapped-and-enslaved-was-this-really-a-thing/682934/46 "2014-03-06T13:42:21Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > Solomon Northup was born free, he did not have manumission papers to “prove” he was free. And, of course, the Dred Scott decision said blacks couldn’t be citizens or have rights even if they were free. Dred Scott was decided in 1857, so it didn’t apply for long before the Civil War, but it affirmed the legal status of blacks that many states followed anyway. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-blacks-kidnapped-and-enslaved-was-this-really-a-thing/682934/47 "2014-03-06T13:43:21Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > (to everyone) > Not everyone has seen _12 years a slave_ yet, please be careful with the spoilers. I haven’t seen it either but I’m guessing he’s a slave for 12 years. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-blacks-kidnapped-and-enslaved-was-this-really-a-thing/682934/48 "2014-03-06T13:56:00Z")
Of course, note the synopsis above - to get Simon to market, so to speak, they persuaded him to travel to Washington where nobody knew him and nobody could vouch for him, and there wasn’t a community of friends and family who were there to step in and prevent the kidnapping. The Gap Gang above seemed to pick on travellers. Presumably if you kept in your community, you were safe® from marauders; venture out on your own and it seems you were fair game. As someone says about chop shops - not a lot of cars are stolen, but many are and the easy pickin’s and high demand ones in vulnerable areas are most likely to disappear. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-blacks-kidnapped-and-enslaved-was-this-really-a-thing/682934/49 "2014-03-06T13:57:50Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > I haven’t seen it either but I’m guessing he’s a slave for 12 years. Obviously I guessed that, but what I didn’t guess was things like …his eventual freedom. I mean, it could have been 12 years a slave and then he died at the end of the film for all I knew. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-blacks-kidnapped-and-enslaved-was-this-really-a-thing/682934/50 "2014-03-06T15:46:54Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Obviously I guessed that, but what I didn’t guess was things like > > …his eventual freedom. I mean, it could have been 12 years a slave and then he died at the end of the film for all I knew. Then when would he have written the book? ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-blacks-kidnapped-and-enslaved-was-this-really-a-thing/682934/51 "2014-03-06T15:48:51Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > 1. That the white people who will vouch for him have some real authority. I mean, what is the schoolteacher really going to do if the bounty hunter snatches the nice darkie who busted up her chifferobe that one time? Write a sternly worded letter to the Women’s League? The case that effectively ended slavery in England was James Somersett, and he was kidnapped by his master, having formerly run away and set himself up in London, to be taken back to the Caribbean. He was freed when his friends in London heard, had a writ of Habeas Corpus issued and had him dragged off the boat he’d been dragged onto and freed in court. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-blacks-kidnapped-and-enslaved-was-this-really-a-thing/682934/52 "2014-03-06T15:49:31Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > Then when would he have written the book? Ghostwriter. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-blacks-kidnapped-and-enslaved-was-this-really-a-thing/682934/53 "2014-03-06T17:45:58Z")
> [@Keeve](#): > > Sure, **IF** you could contact them and get them to come for you without getting kidnapped themselves. There wasn’t any “You get one phone call” back then. If you want to go that route, you could kidnap anybody nowadays, if you can do it so that no one sees you. What makes it harder is there are people around, and that would be true then too. > [@monstro](#): > > All of this presumes that: > > 1. A white bounty hunter/slave-catcher really cares to listen to the wailing, pleading, filthy-lying-criminal subhuman they’ve just collared. > > 2. That the black person they collared can find white people who will vouch for him. Remember we are talking about a racist society, where a black person isn’t in a legal or social position to “vouch” for anything. He may have tons of best pals, but if they’re black their word means absolutely nothing. And we’re talking about someone being enslaved. Who they hell wouldn’t lie to protect their friend from that? > > 3. That the white people who will vouch for him have some real authority. I mean, what is the schoolteacher really going to do if the bounty hunter snatches the nice darkie who busted up her chifferobe that one time? Write a sternly worded letter to the Women’s League? > > If you’re a recently freed slave who has just moved into town, even friendly whites might think, “Hey, this guy could be anyone. He might just be a runaway for all I know.” To your first point, people who witnessed the kidnapping would call the police, like anyone else snatched off the streets today. You wouldn’t rely on the guy who did the snatching to make the correct decision. As for your other points, as above, this could be true, but needs to be established by some factual basis. ---
**Author:** ![Si\_Amigo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/si_amigo/32/2877_2.png) [@Si\_Amigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Si_Amigo)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-blacks-kidnapped-and-enslaved-was-this-really-a-thing/682934/54 "2014-03-06T18:01:40Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > To your first point, people who witnessed the kidnapping would call the police, like anyone else snatched off the streets today. They didn’t have phones to call the police with; the country was much more rural back then, not at all “like today”. To your other point it sounds as if you want cites that people were racist against blacks prior to the Civil War. The reason the Underground Railroad was an underground operation was that there were plenty of normal everyday people in the north that didn’t like black people (especially escaped slaves) and would actually aid in there recapture if only for the reason that they didn’t like there neighbors bringing “those” people into “their” area. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-blacks-kidnapped-and-enslaved-was-this-really-a-thing/682934/55 "2014-03-06T18:48:00Z")
> [@Si\_Amigo](#): > > They didn’t have phones to call the police with; the country was much more rural back then, not at all “like today”. Well yeah, they didn’t have phones, but I’m sure the SOP in case of kidnapping was not to try to persuade the kidnappers not to kidnp you. Whatever the system was, that’s the system you need to compare to in the case of blacks being grabbed, not suggest it’s all about getting the white bounty hunter/slave-catcher to “really care to listen”. > [@](#): > > To your other point it sounds as if you want cites that people were racist against blacks prior to the Civil War. The reason the Underground Railroad was an underground operation was that there were plenty of normal everyday people in the north that didn’t like black people (especially escaped slaves) and would actually aid in there recapture if only for the reason that they didn’t like there neighbors bringing “those” people into “their” area. I’m pretty sure most people were racist back then, but there’s a big difference between being racist and being acquiescient in random black people being grabbed off the street and sold into slavery under false pretenses. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-blacks-kidnapped-and-enslaved-was-this-really-a-thing/682934/56 "2014-03-06T19:41:11Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > To your first point, people who witnessed the kidnapping would call the police, like anyone else snatched off the streets today. You wouldn’t rely on the guy who did the snatching to make the correct decision. Contacting the police/sheriff/marshall wouldn’t help – they were required to assist the ‘kidnappers’ by the Fugitive Slave act (with a huge personal fine (about a years income) if they refused to assist. And any friends or family who tried to assist them against the ‘kidnappers’ were made criminals, subject to prosecution under this Act. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-blacks-kidnapped-and-enslaved-was-this-really-a-thing/682934/57 "2014-03-06T19:46:14Z")
Assuming the guy was actually a runaway slave, of course. But we’re presupposing that the guy wasn’t. I mean, if you saw a guy snatching a kid into a van and grabbed the kid away, you could technically be a kidnapper yourself if it turned out that the guy was the kid’s father. But that doesn’t mean kidnappings are rampant because everyone is afraid to interfere lest they themselves be accused of kidnapping. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-blacks-kidnapped-and-enslaved-was-this-really-a-thing/682934/58 "2014-03-06T19:58:49Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Assuming the guy was actually a runaway slave, of course. But we’re presupposing that the guy wasn’t. > > I mean, if you saw a guy snatching a kid into a van and grabbed the kid away, you could technically be a kidnapper yourself if it turned out that the guy was the kid’s father. But that doesn’t mean kidnappings are rampant because everyone is afraid to interfere lest they themselves be accused of kidnapping. I think that in these cases, the kidnapper would claim that the person was some run away slave, producing papers that matched their description. If you were in a place where you had a long-established residence, you might be able to prove you weren’t the person on the missing slave bill, but if you were a relative new comer or otherwise isolated, you could not. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-blacks-kidnapped-and-enslaved-was-this-really-a-thing/682934/59 "2014-03-06T20:47:40Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Assuming the guy was actually a runaway slave, of course. But we’re presupposing that the guy wasn’t. > > I mean, if you saw a guy snatching a kid into a van and grabbed the kid away, you could technically be a kidnapper yourself if it turned out that the guy was the kid’s father. But that doesn’t mean kidnappings are rampant because everyone is afraid to interfere lest they themselves be accused of kidnapping. Interesting that you mention [children](http://blackpressresearchcollective.org/2013/12/09/beyond-12-years-a-slave-the-early-black-press-and-the-kidnapping-of-free-black-children-by-kim-gallon/). > [@](#): > > While much has been made of the kidnapping of Solomon Northrup, the kidnapping of free Black children occurred more often than the abduction of free Black adults. Children were particularly vulnerable to kidnappers or “man-stealers” as they were easier to take than adults. Children were less likely to have freedom papers on their person. Children also lacked the credibility of adults, even Black ones, and had a more difficult time convincing others of their free status. Children bound out to employers to contribute to the household income were often taken. Instead of releasing children back to their parents at the end of their labor agreement, some employers sold the children into slavery. Employers such as these took advantage of African American families and children made vulnerable because of poverty and their tenuous status as free Blacks. Kidnapped free blacks wouldn’t be grabbed on the street. In an alley, in a building they’d been lured into, or somewhere in the country. Where nobody could see. Then they were taken far to the South. As far as their friends & family knew–they just disappeared. Without money & power, their options were limited… ---
**Author:** ![Si\_Amigo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/si_amigo/32/2877_2.png) [@Si\_Amigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Si_Amigo)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-blacks-kidnapped-and-enslaved-was-this-really-a-thing/682934/60 "2014-03-06T21:09:31Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Assuming the guy was actually a runaway slave, of course. But we’re presupposing that the guy wasn’t. > > I mean, if you saw a guy snatching a kid into a van and grabbed the kid away, you could technically be a kidnapper yourself if it turned out that the guy was the kid’s father. But that doesn’t mean kidnappings are rampant because everyone is afraid to interfere lest they themselves be accused of kidnapping. First you assume that kidnappers are stupid and do these things in front of witnesses because they know everyone hates blacks and that they can get away with it. And you may have good cause to believe this since many blacks were actually[hung up to a tree in front of the whole town](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/till/peopleevents/e_lynch.html) up into the early 20th century. But generally people today and back then try to hide there crimes because in the interest of making a profit it is wise to do so. Why scare off other blacks (potential profit) by doing the kidnapping them in public? It’s bad business. Also, there are a lot of missing children out there right now. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-blacks-kidnapped-and-enslaved-was-this-really-a-thing/682934.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-blacks-kidnapped-and-enslaved-was-this-really-a-thing/682934.md?page=4)