# Free Blacks Kidnapped and Enslaved; Was This Really a Thing? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 5, 2014, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-blacks-kidnapped-and-enslaved-was-this-really-a-thing/682934 "2014-03-05T16:36:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-blacks-kidnapped-and-enslaved-was-this-really-a-thing/682934/61 "2014-03-06T21:13:40Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Not hinting at all. Look up the [Barbary Pirates](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbary_pirates) who raided the northern Mediterranean and round up the English Channel and even as far afield as Iceland. This is something that should be well-known. But that’s not particularly on point here, given the implied historical and geographic context. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-blacks-kidnapped-and-enslaved-was-this-really-a-thing/682934/62 "2014-03-06T23:46:58Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Assuming the guy was actually a runaway slave, of course. But we’re presupposing that the guy wasn’t. > > I mean, if you saw a guy snatching a kid into a van and grabbed the kid away, you could technically be a kidnapper yourself if it turned out that the guy was the kid’s father. But that doesn’t mean kidnappings are rampant because everyone is afraid to interfere lest they themselves be accused of kidnapping. Quick. You see someone pull up next to a dog on the street and throw him into the back seat of their car. Do you go find the closest police officer to file a report? Or do you shrug your shoulders and keep on with your business? ---
**Author:** ![Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blue_blistering_barnacle/32/3386_2.png) [@Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blue_Blistering_Barnacle)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-blacks-kidnapped-and-enslaved-was-this-really-a-thing/682934/63 "2014-03-07T00:21:00Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > Then when would he have written the book? On his nights, weekends, and on personal days off. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-blacks-kidnapped-and-enslaved-was-this-really-a-thing/682934/64 "2014-03-07T01:44:05Z")
I asked respectfully for no more spoilers, I don’t see why I’m getting the snark. Yes, it’s possible that if you think it through, the fact the book exists tells us something about what happens in the film. But you can say the same thing about many spoilers “It’s obvious when you think about it…”. I hadn’t thought about it. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-blacks-kidnapped-and-enslaved-was-this-really-a-thing/682934/65 "2014-03-07T03:51:52Z")
Still waiting for \*\*Little Nemo \*\*to produce cites for his post, which was the first response in this thread. At this point, I guess we should assume he has none. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-blacks-kidnapped-and-enslaved-was-this-really-a-thing/682934/66 "2014-03-07T04:27:19Z")
> [@Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](#): > > On his nights, weekends, and on personal days off. Huh? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-blacks-kidnapped-and-enslaved-was-this-really-a-thing/682934/67 "2014-03-07T14:33:36Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Still waiting for \*\*Little Nemo \*\*to produce cites for his post, which was the first response in this thread. At this point, I guess we should assume he has none. He might be the first, but there’s no real reason to single him out. This entire thread has been along the same lines. ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-blacks-kidnapped-and-enslaved-was-this-really-a-thing/682934/68 "2014-03-07T19:31:41Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > He might be the first, but there’s no real reason to single him out. This entire thread has been along the same lines. Fighting ignorance requires a modicumof effort on the part of the ignorant one. Get the book I linked to, and check the bibliography for original sources. Not hard. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-blacks-kidnapped-and-enslaved-was-this-really-a-thing/682934/69 "2014-03-07T19:50:14Z")
Not how it works. I don’t care enough about this topic and I can’t be bothered to find and read books on this subject. Anyone interested in reading books on topics that are covered here will probably be a lot more educated on most of these topics. But the main function of this board is for people who are not up to reading books on the subject. What you’re saying boils down to “the proof that I’m right is in such-and-such book, and since I’ve provided the name of a book I am presumed to be correct in my assertions”. Doesn’t cut it, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-blacks-kidnapped-and-enslaved-was-this-really-a-thing/682934/70 "2014-03-07T20:21:45Z")
A “fugitive slave” didn’t have legal standing to object to his being hauled back to bondage. And that means, a person being transported as a fugitive slave did not have the right to a hearing to determine whether they were, in fact, a fugitive slave. And once a black man was in the south, all it took was the word of one white man before a judge that, yes, this was Bill who ran away a few years ago, and the fugitive was now legally enslaved. Yeah, if a white man from the victim’s home went down to the plantation and swore that the supposed slave was actually Bob, a free man, then we’d have a court case. But of course, there was no way for this to actually happen, since even if the victim’s white associates would be willing to swear that he was a free man, they would have no way for knowing where he was or what happened to him. Bob disappears one day, and a month later there’s a new slave named Bill in Mississippi. It is exactly analogous to having your car stolen and shipped off to Mexico. Yeah, if you happened to be walking down the street in Guadalajara years later and saw your car you could complain about it. Except that’s not going to happen. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-blacks-kidnapped-and-enslaved-was-this-really-a-thing/682934/71 "2014-03-07T20:28:02Z")
Don’t forget - (a) in the days before automobiles, the fastest anyone could get away was a horse’s gallop. In fact, horses would tire very quickly, it’s not like someone would be 50 miles away before the hue and cry got out. (b) we forget in this day of cheap transport how “small town” even the big towns were. Everyone knew everyone’s business, who belonged in a neighbourhood and who didn’t. (Just ask someone who’s lived in a small town!) People didn’t live in 20-story apartments and never see their neighbours. Without air conditioning, everyone hung out outdoors in the breeze and shade. most people lived where they worked in the days before autos and electric subway trains. Snatching someone off a crowded trolley would be pretty difficult. Thus my contention - the Gap Gang is reported as operating on the road far from interfering crowds. Solomon was lured 90% of the way to be kidnapped (in private?) well outside his community. A gang trolling for victims in a black or mixed(?) neighbourhood would be noticed and remarked upon very quickly. They would be lucky to survive a riot after the first kidnapping. it’s not a trick you can keep pulling habitually. © Just because the fugitive slave act said “do this” does not mean northern law authority did it. This was part of the problem - ever more strong acts were passed as the provious ones were ignored or bypassed. The requirement to help slave catchers was not an afterthought - I recall reading it was put there due to the active resistance of some northern state officials. And… if it came down to a court dispute between a half dozen white northern policemen and some drawling southern hayseeds - “they freed my runaway slave!” vs. “Nothing happened!”, which one will the white northern Judge believe? So it sounds like it was dangerous to wander beyond your comfort zone if you were a prime target (eligible slave material) but not that there was a reign of terror where people disappeared from their home street every day. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-blacks-kidnapped-and-enslaved-was-this-really-a-thing/682934/72 "2014-03-07T20:28:40Z")
That _is_ what happened to free Northup. It had to be rare, but it happened. ---
**Author:** ![davidw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@davidw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidw)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-blacks-kidnapped-and-enslaved-was-this-really-a-thing/682934/73 "2014-03-07T20:33:50Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Still waiting for \*\*Little Nemo \*\*to produce cites for his post, which was the first response in this thread. At this point, I guess we should assume he has none. What kind of proof are you looking for? Here’s a link to the [Fugitive Slave Act of 1850](http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/fugitive.asp), and here’s the relevant passage: > [@](#): > > And be it further enacted, That when a person held to service or labor in any State or Territory of the United States, has heretofore or shall hereafter escape into another State or Territory of the United States, the person or persons to whom such service or labor may be due, or his, her, or their agent or attorney, duly authorized, by power of attorney, in writing, acknowledged and certified under the seal of some legal officer or court of the State or Territory in which the same may be executed, may pursue and reclaim such fugitive person, either by procuring a warrant from some one of the courts, judges, or commissioners aforesaid, of the proper circuit, district, or county, for the apprehension of such fugitive from service or labor, or by seizing and arresting such fugitive, where the same can be done without process, and by taking, or causing such person to be taken, forthwith before such court, judge, or commissioner, whose duty it shall be to hear and determine the case of such claimant in a summary manner; and upon satisfactory proof being made, by deposition or affidavit, in writing, to be taken and certified by such court, judge, or commissioner, or by other satisfactory testimony, duly taken and certified by some court, magistrate, justice of the peace, or other legal officer authorized to administer an oath and take depositions under the laws of the State or Territory from which such person owing service or labor may have escaped, with a certificate of such magistracy or other authority, as aforesaid, with the seal of the proper court or officer thereto attached, which seal shall be sufficient to establish the competency of the proof, and with proof, also by affidavit, of the identity of the person whose service or labor is claimed to be due as aforesaid, that the person so arrested does in fact owe service or labor to the person or persons claiming him or her, in the State or Territory from which such fugitive may have escaped as aforesaid, and that said person escaped, to make out and deliver to such claimant, his or her agent or attorney, a certificate setting forth the substantial facts as to the service or labor due from such fugitive to the claimant, and of his or her escape from the State or Territory in which he or she was arrested, with authority to such claimant, or his or her agent or attorney, to use such reasonable force and restraint as may be necessary, under the circumstances of the case, to take and remove such fugitive person back to the State or Territory whence he or she may have escaped as aforesaid. In no trial or hearing under this act shall the testimony of such alleged fugitive be admitted in evidence; and the certificates in this and the first [fourth] section mentioned, shall be conclusive of the right of the person or persons in whose favor granted, to remove such fugitive to the State or Territory from which he escaped, and shall prevent all molestation of such person or persons by any process issued by any court, judge, magistrate, or other person whomsoever. Was there a specific claim in Little Nemo’s post that you wanted more info on? ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-blacks-kidnapped-and-enslaved-was-this-really-a-thing/682934/74 "2014-03-07T21:57:53Z")
> [@davidw](#): > > Was there a specific claim in Little Nemo’s post that you wanted more info on? Apparently, for whatever reason, **John Mace** and **Fotheringay-Phipps** want to believe that the circumstances of Northup’s abduction were rare to non-existent, and unless someone somehow can pony up statistics for crimes which mostly went unnoticed by the law enforcement authorities of the day (seemingly a difficult proposition), then they can remain secure in that belief. I’m sure they’ll correct me if I’ve misstated their intent. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-blacks-kidnapped-and-enslaved-was-this-really-a-thing/682934/75 "2014-03-08T03:41:01Z")
A [1834 woodcut showing a freed black being kidnapped by slavers](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aia/part3/3h510b.html) The kidnapping of free blacks was common enough to be addressed in law. According to this [source](http://books.google.com/books?id=SGvDdmPnN3IC&pg=PA238&lpg=PA238&dq=freed+blacks+kidnapped+slaves+statistics&source=bl&ots=Nl-o8zpUa2&sig=K5EnlnY_RRFnUBuhN6OE7PHIkAw&hl=en&sa=X&ei=e4kaU83eJYu3kAfG2YCIAQ&ved=0CF0Q6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=freed%20blacks%20kidnapped%20slaves%20statistics&f=false), Delaware General Assembly passed laws regarding the punishment of kidnappers in 1787 and 1793. It describes several people were tried and convicted of this crime. The source says that in 1800 a kidnapping ring was uncovered reporting involving 100 African Americans victims. Apparently, the problem of kidnapping was so serious during the antebellum years that the General Assembly had to pass stricter punishments. I have not looked to see if at least other border states had similar legislation. My guess is that they did. I really don’t understand the skepticism. I can’t turn on the TV without hearing about children being abducted. Many of these children end up being someone’s slave. Just imagine if sex trafficking of minors was legal and unregulated. Imagine how many more children’s faces we would see on the six o’clock news. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-blacks-kidnapped-and-enslaved-was-this-really-a-thing/682934/76 "2014-03-08T15:23:04Z")
And while I don’t expect gratitude for having rooted around for information (because I always enjoy learning more about a topic), I would like **John Mace** and **Fotheringay-Phipps** to at least acknowledge that crimes that are rare and insignificant typically do not get acknowledged by the law. Since it’s impossible to know how many free blacks (particularly children) were abducted and enslaved, I’m thinking it would be decent on your parts to to accept what’s evident in the law books as a reasonable proxy for his information. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-blacks-kidnapped-and-enslaved-was-this-really-a-thing/682934/77 "2014-03-08T16:58:57Z")
I’ll risk being accused of hijacking, but… what was Solomon Northup’s wife in New York doing while he was missing for 12 years? What were his family and friends doing? Obviously, they had no way of knowing he was a slave in Louisiana, but did they make any effort through legal authorities to find out where he’d gone or what had happened to him? It’s certainly easy enough to believe that they DID call the police and got nowhere. But did the book or movie indicate what efforts Northup’s family made to find or save him? ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-blacks-kidnapped-and-enslaved-was-this-really-a-thing/682934/78 "2014-03-08T18:51:07Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > And while I don’t expect gratitude for having rooted around for information (because I always enjoy learning more about a topic), I would like **John Mace** and **Fotheringay-Phipps** to at least acknowledge that crimes that are rare and insignificant typically do not get acknowledged by the law. Since it’s impossible to know how many free blacks (particularly children) were abducted and enslaved, I’m thinking it would be decent on your parts to to accept what’s evident in the law books as a reasonable proxy for his information. You’ve got my gratitude. Thanks. > [@monstro](#): > > I really don’t understand the skepticism. I can’t turn on the TV without hearing about children being abducted. Many of these children end up being someone’s slave. Just imagine if sex trafficking of minors was legal and unregulated. Imagine how many more children’s faces we would see on the six o’clock news. They’ll believe it when they see it on Fox News. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-blacks-kidnapped-and-enslaved-was-this-really-a-thing/682934/79 "2014-03-08T23:37:21Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Still waiting for \*\*Little Nemo \*\*to produce cites for his post, which was the first response in this thread. At this point, I guess we should assume he has none. I’m trying to spend less time arguing on this board. (I’ll admit I’m not there yet but I’m making an effort.) My new principle is to answer a person’s question and then, if they don’t want to accept the answer, let it go. If somebody asks for details or wants to discuss the issue, I’m usually up for that. But if they are just saying they don’t believe me, why bother? If they didn’t believe my first post, why should I put any further effort into more posts than they probably won’t believe either. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-blacks-kidnapped-and-enslaved-was-this-really-a-thing/682934/80 "2014-03-08T23:41:50Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > However I can’t find how common this is. Was it dozens a year, hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands? I don’t know. It seems sadly to be a very profitable venture. A slave could get you $500-2000 back when people earned less than a dollar a day. One figure I found was that 332 people were captured in non-slave states under the terms of the Fugitive Slave Act in the ten years it was in force. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-blacks-kidnapped-and-enslaved-was-this-really-a-thing/682934.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-blacks-kidnapped-and-enslaved-was-this-really-a-thing/682934.md?page=5)