# Free Electricity From the Sun **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 30, 2001, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-electricity-from-the-sun/60054 "2001-03-30T02:17:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![fatherjohn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b2d939/32.png) [@fatherjohn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fatherjohn)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2001, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-electricity-from-the-sun/60054/61 "2001-04-01T02:01:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Coldfire \* > \*\*It wasn’t relevant, you idiot. > > \*\* Interesting that **coldfire** spent a whole paragraph discussing something that “wasn’t relevant,” and didn’t claim irrelevancy until _after_ **fatherjohn** mentioned greenpeace and caught **coldfire**. Oh well, there’s always the old fallback of criticizing **fatherjohn** ’s posting style. But have a nice day! :wally ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2001, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-electricity-from-the-sun/60054/62 "2001-04-01T02:11:24Z")
What quote was from a Greenpeace source? Show it. Show us that Greenpeace says solar energy is 500% more expensive than normal energy. Go right ahead. BTW, if the website’s called [http://www.greenpeace-r-poseurs.com](http://www.greenpeace-r-poseurs.com) , chances are it ain’t really theirs. ---
**Author:** ![fatherjohn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b2d939/32.png) [@fatherjohn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fatherjohn)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2001, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-electricity-from-the-sun/60054/63 "2001-04-01T02:25:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Coldfire \* > **What quote was from a Greenpeace source? Show it.** “Electricity generated with the help of solar panels is for the end user approximately a factor of 4 to 5 times more expensive than electricity generated by conventional sources . . . .” Source: KPMG Bureau voor Economische Argumentatie, Solar Energy: From Perennial Promise to Competitive Alternative, Hoofddorp, August 1999 (written on commission of Greenpeace Nederland), at page 12. SCORE!!! ---
**Author:** ![Monster104](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Monster104](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monster104)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2001, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-electricity-from-the-sun/60054/64 "2001-04-01T03:46:45Z")
Ya know, maybe **fatherjackass** is the new spokesperson for Energizer. I mean, he just keeps going, and going, and going… Nothing outlasts a dumbass. ---
**Author:** ![YWalker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/6f9a4e/32.png) [@YWalker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWalker)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2001, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-electricity-from-the-sun/60054/65 "2001-04-01T03:54:56Z")
Excuse me, **FJ** , but aren’t you totally twisting the meaning of the [reference](http://www.greenpeace.org/pressreleases/climate/1999sep14.html) you keep citing? > [@](#): > > SOLAR PV ELECTRICITY CAN BE COMPETITIVE WITH CONVENTIONAL POWER IN THE SHORT-TERM: KPMG BUSINESS ANALYSIS FOR GREENPEACE > > 14 September 1999 > > London – Solar energy could become competitive in the short-term with conventional electricity, according to a report by business consultants and accountancy firm KPMG, commissioned by Greenpeace. > > The KPMG report, “Solar Energy: from Perennial Promise to Competitive Alternative”, calculates that one large-scale solar PV (1) factory which produces five million solar panels a year (equivalent to 250,000 homes, each with a two kilowatt system) could reduce the cost of solar power by a factor of four making it price competitive for domestic consumers with electricity produced from conventional sources. \ The article points out that one of the major driving forces behind the current relatively high first cost of PV installations is that demand is relatively low for the product, and thus manufacturing facilities cannot take advantage of the the economies of scale in manufacturing. A short term market force which would increase the demand for PV would drive down the costs of PV systems, which in turn would significantly increase demand for PV systems, making them cost competive on their own. ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2001, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-electricity-from-the-sun/60054/66 "2001-04-01T04:23:15Z")
> [@](#): > > Interesting that coldfire doesn’t mention anything about subsidies until he is called on it. Interesting that Ol’ John has started to ignore his “400% to 500%” bullshit now that it’s been disproven. Not that I’m surprised. > [@](#): > > Interesting that coldfire spent a whole paragraph discussing something that “wasn’t relevant,” and didn’t claim irrelevancy until after fatherjohn mentioned greenpeace and caught coldfire. Interesting that it took him, what, four posts to even discuss the irrelevant subjects, and only after a dickhead named **fatherjohn** kept screeching about it. He spent a whole paragraph about it to **shut you up** , you moron. > [@](#): > > “Electricity generated with the help of solar panels is for the end user approximately a factor of 4 to 5 times more expensive than electricity generated by conventional sources . . . .” “ **fatherjohn** knows dick.” Source: Me and 6 billion other people on this planet. SCORE!! (See, I can make shit up, too) ---
**Author:** ![fatherjohn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b2d939/32.png) [@fatherjohn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fatherjohn)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2001, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-electricity-from-the-sun/60054/67 "2001-04-01T11:30:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by YWalker \* > London – Solar energy **could become competitive** in the short-term with conventional electricity, according to a report by business consultants and accountancy firm KPMG, commissioned by Greenpeace. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by coldfire \* > > How else do you expect for-profit companies to implement energy generating methods that **(at least for now)** are more costly than the conventional ones? :rolleyes: apples? oranges? whatever. (emphasis mine.) ---
**Author:** ![YWalker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/6f9a4e/32.png) [@YWalker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWalker)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2001, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-electricity-from-the-sun/60054/68 "2001-04-01T12:58:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by fatherjohn \* > :rolleyes: > > apples? oranges? whatever. > > (emphasis mine.) > \*\* Non sequitur? **Moron?** whatever. (emphasis mine.) ---
**Author:** ![fatherjohn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b2d939/32.png) [@fatherjohn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fatherjohn)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2001, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-electricity-from-the-sun/60054/69 "2001-04-01T13:24:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by YWalker \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by fatherjohn \* > > :rolleyes: > > > > apples? oranges? whatever. > > > > (emphasis mine.) > > \*\* > > Non sequitur? **Moron?** whatever. > > (emphasis mine.) \*\* Look junior, let **fatherjohn** give you a free piece of advice: “When you’re in a hole, stop digging.” But have a nice day! :wally ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2001, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-electricity-from-the-sun/60054/70 "2001-04-01T13:29:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SPOOFE Bo Diddly \* > “ **fatherjohn** knows dick.” > > Source: Me and 6 billion other people on this planet. > > SCORE!! > > (See, I can make shit up, too) > > \*\* One is highly amused. ---
**Author:** ![mske](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ccd318/32.png) [@mske](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mske)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2001, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-electricity-from-the-sun/60054/71 "2001-04-01T15:09:16Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **fatherjohn** ;_ > > **fatherjohn** will try to find a link, if I have the time. Got to run out and count more SUVs? ---
**Author:** ![JeffB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jeffb/32/188_2.png) [@JeffB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JeffB)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2001, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-electricity-from-the-sun/60054/72 "2001-04-01T15:19:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by fatherjohn \* > Look junior, let **fatherjohn** give you a free piece of advice: “When you’re in a hole, stop digging.” Pot? Kettle? (Oops, sorry about that, everyone. 😃 ) ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2001, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-electricity-from-the-sun/60054/73 "2001-04-01T15:53:39Z")
For those not keeping track of the argument, here is a re-cap: 1. **fatherschmuck** cites a Greenpeace article that says solar energy costs four to five times more than existing energy. Naturally, in true **fatherschmuck** fashion, he does not provide a cite. He does come up with some text, which he obviously copied and pasted from the cite… but still does not post a link. :wally 2. Other posters dispute his claims. **YWalker** finds the site and told **fatherschmuck** that his conclusions are incorrect. Using **fatherschmuck’s** own article against him, he says that **fatherschmuck** has been “hoisted by his own petard”. Said poster pointed out that **fatherschmuck** totally twisted the meaning of the [reference](http://www.greenpeace.org/pressreleases/climate/1999sep14.html) he kept citing. 3. **Johnny L.A.** goes to the site. He reads the article _and_ the Greenpeace report that is linked as a .pdf document. This is what he finds: 4. **YWalker** having proven **fatherschmuck’s** claim to be incorrect, since the price of solar power would be about the same as conventionally-generated power if and when solar power comes into wide use, is subjected to an “apples/oranges” _non sequitur_ by **fatherschmuck**. 5. **YWalker** replies in kind. 6. **fatherschmuck** offers advice: “When you’re in a hole, stop digging.” Conclusions: 1. **fatherschmuck** should take his own advice. 2. **fatherschmuck** cannot comprehend a simple document. 3. **fatherschmuck** cannot follow simple logic. 4. **fatherschmuck** is either a complete idiot, or else he’s **fishing** (note: I did not say **trolling** for responses for some sort of twisted self-gratification. Expectations: 1. **fatherschmuck** will reply with a “:rolleyes: Pot? Kettle?” remark; or, 2. **fatherschmuck** will use an “apples/oranges” remark; or, 3. **fatherschmuck** will use the “hole digging” remark. Whatever its response is, it is virtually guarantied that it will be nonsensical. ---
**Author:** ![fatherjohn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b2d939/32.png) [@fatherjohn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fatherjohn)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2001, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-electricity-from-the-sun/60054/74 "2001-04-01T17:38:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Johnny L.A. \* While the report _does_ say that the price per kilowatt-hour is _currently_ greater than power generated by conventional means (“the price for households [in the U.S.] is currently 8.3 cents/kWh.” and “the price of this PV power is around 29 cents/kWh.”), he ignores another paragraph that states the price for PV power **would be** around "7.8 cents/kWh > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Coldfire_ > Show us that Greenpeace says solar energy **is** 500% more expensive than normal energy. Go right ahead. > \*\* Ummm, “would be” != “is” Sorry to “sink your battleship.” But have a nice day! :wally (emphasis mine) ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2001, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-electricity-from-the-sun/60054/75 "2001-04-01T17:57:23Z")
So what’s your argument? That we should not pursue solar power because it won’t be priced close to conventional power until we pursue it? :rolleyes: Did you know that automobiles were toys for the wealthy until they went into mass production? Did you know that when electric power was first supplied to cities, the infrastructure had to be built at great expense? Did you know that the first hydroelectric plant cost an enormous amount of money, and that money was recouped over the years? Does it really matter to you if people are prepared to pay a premium for a virtually inexhaustible power supply? Or are you intentionally being a schmuck Oh, **One Who Dwells Beneath a Bridge**? ---
**Author:** ![fatherjohn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b2d939/32.png) [@fatherjohn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fatherjohn)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2001, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-electricity-from-the-sun/60054/76 "2001-04-01T18:16:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by mske \* > \*\* > Got to run out and count more SUVs? > > \*\* Interesting that the subject of SUV’s should come up so frequently in a thread on solar power, don’t you think? If **mske** were to start a thread in the “Pit” addressing SUV’s, **fatherjohn** would seriously consider contributing to such a thread. ---
**Author:** ![fatherjohn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b2d939/32.png) [@fatherjohn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fatherjohn)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2001, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-electricity-from-the-sun/60054/77 "2001-04-01T18:33:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Johnny L.A. \* > \*\*So what’s your argument? That we should not pursue solar power because it won’t be priced close to conventional power until we pursue it? :rolleyes: Did you know that automobiles were toys for the wealthy until they went into mass production? Did you know that when electric power was first supplied to cities, the infrastructure had to be built at great expense? Did you know that the first hydroelectric plant cost an enormous amount of money, and that money was recouped over the years? Does it really matter to you if people are prepared to pay a premium for a virtually inexhaustible power supply? > > Or are you intentionally being a schmuck Oh, **One Who Dwells Beneath a Bridge**? > > \*\* Don’t be a sore loser - it’s unbecoming. **fatherjohn** ’s point? **Read the Original Post** ™. But have a nice day! **:wally** ---
**Author:** ![Alphagene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Alphagene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alphagene)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2001, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-electricity-from-the-sun/60054/78 "2001-04-01T19:51:19Z")
This is getting stupid. -er. Clearly, I can easily modify fatherjohn’s posting behavior. Notice how he’s consistently used the third person since I pointed out his sporadic use? Good boy, fj, you deserve a Snausage. In an attempt to further mold the putty that is fatherjohn in my hands, I would like to mention that we all have exceeded our gratuitous “putz smilie” recommended daily allowances. Thanks anyway. If you want to debate the benefits of solar power, take it to GD. If you want to flame people for weak arguments, post it here. But if your only desire is to continue calling people “putz” or to use fourth grade retorts such as “whatever”, “SCORE!” and “Hello, McFly!” (That “joke” is over **15** years old, you realize), then take it to a message board that has moderators who are easliy entertained. I find it to be terribly boring. ---
**Author:** ![Monster104](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Monster104](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monster104)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2001, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-electricity-from-the-sun/60054/79 "2001-04-01T20:02:40Z")
It defies intelligence to see the circular arguments that **fatheridiot** has. **fatheridiot** : “Solar energy isn’t free because this article I found and twisted doesn’t say so!” **Us** : “You’re wrong, you twisted the meaning of that article” **fatheridiot** : “Well, I’m a teapot, you’re a coffe kettle, whatever I say must be right because I’m an ignorant asshole, so stop digging the hole you’re burying me in because I’m stupid. SCORE!” **Us** : “Are you deliberately being an idiot? Answer are questions!” **fatheridiot** : “Oh, I already have in my OP, which made absolutely no sense to those with a grasp of logic, just like all my other posts. But have a nice day!” **Us** : :rolleyes: It’s kind of like arguing with a spoiled child. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2001, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-electricity-from-the-sun/60054/80 "2001-04-01T20:06:35Z")
What I love about this is fatherjohn ACTUALLY THINKS HE’S WINNING THIS DEBATE! Holy shit! It takes an enourmous ego to have every single person you talk to tell you you’re a fucking moron, and to therefore conclude that you must be the smartest man on Earth. This is like the boxing match from Cool Hand Luke, except without the dignity. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-electricity-from-the-sun/60054.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-electricity-from-the-sun/60054.md?page=5)