# Free Palestine? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 21, 2007, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-palestine/396880 "2007-03-21T16:31:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2007, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-palestine/396880/141 "2007-03-31T03:31:23Z")
[QUOTE=Alessan] They had a right to whatever state they elected to have. Just like everyone else. [/quote] OK, so if in 40 years the arabs outnumber the Jews, can they vote in an islamic theocracy? > [@](#): > > So why aren’t you giving them their land back? > > Besides, grievences are overrated. They’re not - and shouldn’t be - a prime motivator in international relations. Countries should act in their own self interest, doing what’s best for themselves. Acting out of principle is dangerous, because it’s based upon thinking of the world as it should be, not of the world as it is. If people would stop thinking "what does the world owe us, " and instead ask “what can we do to make our lives better,” we’d all be in a better place. I am not as quick to abandon principled reasoning in the Middle East debate because without it you are basically left with “might makes right” and you will have to kill a lot of Palestinians (think of America’s genocide of American Indians) before they just accept your terms merely because you have bigger guns and there may come a day when you don’t have bigger guns. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2007, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-palestine/396880/142 "2007-03-31T03:42:43Z")
[QUOTE=John Corrado] You are absolutely correct, I was wrong. The land was given to them in **1917**. [The Balfour Declaration](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration_of_1917) [/QUOTE] While I don’t see the conveyance of ownership in the letter you cite I see an intent to to something, maybe even a promise to do something. The Brits made promises to the Palestinians too. They were double dealing and they didn’t give anything away in 1917. The link you cite to talks about this a little bit. This is not to say that you don’t have a point but its not as clear cut a point as you might have hoped for. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2007, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-palestine/396880/143 "2007-03-31T04:11:43Z")
[QUOTE=cmkeller] The Palestinians who fled did so because the Arab governments told them to in order fot their armies to more easily overrun the state of Israel. The Israeli government at the broadcast requests begging the natives to stay, but most didn’t listen. I see no reason why the Israelis should feel responsible to give back land that was abandoned in order to contribute to Israel’s intended defeat. [/quote] cite please > [@](#): > > “A ten-year truce” translates as “ten years to arm ourselves undisturbed and as soon as its over (if we keep our word in the first place) Israel is fair game.” Why the heck would the Israelis agree to that? Hezbollah has negative credibility. And Jerusalem is a sticking point as well. I can see why Israel might not trust its neighbors. I am not sure how you get anywhere without any trust. But ten years of peace is still ten years of peace and there is nothing to keep the Palestinians from arming themselves right now. At the end of ten years, the Palestinians are fair game too and they might have gotten used to peace, they may have developed a taste for it. Of course you guys could just keep killing each other and maybe in a few million years there will be oil in Israel as well. Shouldn’t Jerusalem go to the UN? Give it to a bunch of Buddhists to run for the benefit of all mankind. > [@](#): > > 1. In terms of whether they had the right to, there’s no difference > 2. The Arabs and Jews were at each others’ throats before partition, the state’s creation didn’t start the war > 3. Jordan has had its share of turmoil as well. It was called Black September. The difference is, of course, that Jordan’s king put down the Palestinian uprising brutally enough to shut his native Palestinians up, whereas the Israelis don’t go to those extremes, so their Palestinians keep trying. (1) I was responding to someone who said that the British transferred Jordan “without a peep from anyone” to indicate that they had owned Palestine and had the power to convey it. I think there is a difference between creating a state in the midst of a group of countries that acquiesce to the new state and the creation of a new state in the midst of a group of countries that are vehemently opposed to the new state. I thought we had resolved that the British didn’t actually OWN Palestine, they were more like stewards and that they had some duties and obligation with respect to how they dealt with the land. > [@](#): > > The first group or Class A mandates were areas formerly controlled by the Ottoman Empire deemed to ‘…have reached a stage of development where their existence as independent nations can be provisionally recognized subject to the rendering of administrative advice and assistance by a Mandatory until such time as they are able to stand alone. The wishes of these communities must be a principal consideration in the selection of the Mandatory.’ > **[League of Nations mandate](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/League_of_Nations_mandate)** > > A League of Nations mandate represented a legal status under international law for specific territories following World War I, involving the transfer of control from one nation to another. These mandates served as legal documents establishing the internationally agreed terms for administering the territory on behalf of the League of Nations. Combining elements of both a treaty and a constitution, these mandates contained minority rights clauses that provided for the rights of petition and adjud... (2) I’m pretty sure that there would not have been a war if the entirety of Palestine was just converted into a single country. (3) Hrmm, didn’t Black September happen in 1970? It wasn’t the result of the creation of the state of Jordan. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2007, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-palestine/396880/144 "2007-03-31T04:29:44Z")
[QUOTE=Alessan] Whether or not the governments of these countries were directly involved in the fighting is immaterial. According to international law and thousands of years of tradition, a government is responsible for any acts of aggression originating on its soil. Otherwise, it has no right to call itself a government. [/QUOTE] cite please You can try to make the argument that teh governments were complicit in the attacks but you can’t say that the fact that the government and citizenry do not have the ability to stop attacks coming from their borders means its OK for their neighbors to engage in wholesale slaughter. I don’t know what the answer is, how do you respond to an enemy that has surrounded itself with innocent civilians, do you just kill everyone immediately or do you allow the enemy to exact higher death tolls as you slowly and surgically kill the likeliest suspects with minimal collateral damage. Assymetric warfare is a bitch. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2007, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-palestine/396880/145 "2007-03-31T04:40:00Z")
[QUOTE=cmkeller] Maybe. So naturally, the Israeli government should have gone around to all departed Arabs and asked, on an individual basis, “Did you leave because you were scared, or because you wanted to make it easier for the Arab armies to destroy us? Because you know, if you’re just one of the scared ones, we’d let you have your land back.” Yeah, that would be an effective way to weed out the dangerous element from the simple war refugees. :rolleyes: [/quote] There is always the concept of reparations. > [@](#): > > From an Israeli perspective, hell yes. Action taken against a state is of course wrong in the eyes of that state, and certainly forfeiture of property is a possible consequence. This sort of consequence being determined after the fact would be illegal in this country but then again Israel is not America. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2007, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-palestine/396880/146 "2007-03-31T04:53:57Z")
[QUOTE=Jackmannii] Here in part is what [one balanced source](http://www.mideastweb.org) has to say about the creation of refugees and arguments over right of return [/QUOTE] I was inclined to think that the site was unbiased but I just read the link to the balfour amendment and thre was a right of return in that. The quote also mentions a massacre of Jews at Gush Etzion but does not mentions a massacre at Deir Yassein mentioned a few posts ago. The writing and tone sound reasonable but it doesn’t seem entirely balanced to me. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2007, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-palestine/396880/147 "2007-03-31T04:56:08Z")
[QUOTE=lunarnoodle] What!? It’s natural and expected to want to annihilate an entire religion? And what of the people who practice this religion? Is it perfectly natural and expected, in your estimation that they too be erased from the face of the Earth? Is it perfectly natural and expected then that every practicing Jew be incinerated as well along with the Teples and every last Torah? Or would you expect that through this supposed obliteration that none would be harmed and after, they would simply cease being Jews? Entirely natural and expected, indeed. [/QUOTE] Yeah his post scared me a little bit. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2007, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-palestine/396880/148 "2007-03-31T05:14:29Z")
[QUOTE=Noone Special] They knew Hamas stood for military conflict and for bloodshed, and they voted for them anyway. [/QUOTE] My impression was that the vote for Hamas was more of a vote against Fatah corruption. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2007, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-palestine/396880/149 "2007-03-31T05:31:24Z")
[QUOTE=Gozu] Remember that most of those people under 40 grew up … fantasizing about Angelina Jolie and Cameron Diaz, … [/QUOTE] So most people under 40 are men or lesbians that fantasize about Angelina Jolie and Cameron Diaz? ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2007, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-palestine/396880/150 "2007-03-31T05:52:32Z")
[QUOTE=MerryMagdalen] Depending on where they operate, they are the force in their neighborhoods. Need a new apartment? Call Hamas. Your son is in trouble? Call Hezbollah. Jobs, new apartments, clean water - all come from the party, not the government. (I think I’m thinking more of Lebanon and Syria, but I may be mistaken.) [/QUOTE] True also in the occupied territories and in Egypt (on the other hand, I’m not sure at all it applies in Syria). Whence come most of the support they get from the population. Islamist organizations show themselves as being non-corrupt, efficient, able to provide much needed services, etc… all in contrast with the local authorities. Once someone has seen honest, moral, and high working people build a school for their children, manage to get clean water in the neighborhood, give out food when his family is in dire need, and so on, they of course are going to think “Wouldn’t it be great if these people, who are doing so much for us with so little were actually in charge? We sure would be much much better of”. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2007, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-palestine/396880/151 "2007-03-31T06:50:33Z")
[QUOTE=col\_10022] Yeah his post scared me a little bit. [/QUOTE] I can’t see it as the least surprising. These are _Americans_ we’re talking about. The evidence of their annihilation fantasies is everywhere. Oops gotta go now, mod watching. ---
**Author:** ![FRDE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FRDE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FRDE)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2007, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-palestine/396880/152 "2007-03-31T11:05:59Z")
[QUOTE=clairobscur] Once someone has seen honest, moral, and high working people build a school for their children, manage to get clean water in the neighborhood, give out food when his family is in dire need, and so on, they of course are going to think “Wouldn’t it be great if these people, who are doing so much for us with so little were actually in charge? We sure would be much much better of”. [/QUOTE] Which would be great if those fine people did not start lobbing rockets at the neighbouring State - it is peculiar. ---
**Author:** ![FRDE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FRDE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FRDE)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2007, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-palestine/396880/153 "2007-03-31T11:36:13Z")
[QUOTE=Honesty] No, they fled to Syria. Have you seen pictures of Beirut after Israel got through with it? If this is true, why not attack Hezbollah itself? Why annihilate civilian targets and cluster bomb homes and apartment buildings? This is something you’d expect some African warlord to do, not a Western nation that boasts of being the beacon of democracy in the Middle East. I put the following in italics as if I were screaming them: \*If do not possess the intelligence to attack the enemy specifically and surgically, then don’t wage a war in the first place. \* It’s that simple. [/QUOTE] Beirut was just fine - an oil terminal got bombed and a truck in a residential area that was carrying a water drill - I guess it looked like a rocket. Apart from that the place was fine - but a bit crowded. As others have pointed out, Hezbollah were firing rockets from civilian premises. Israel went to a lot of effort to get civilians to move out. Israel could have cleaned up South Lebanon, and they were in the process of doing so, when they got called off. It probably would not have done much good as Hezbollah would have slunk away. Incidentally the North Lebanese are very frightened of Hezbollah. I’m curious where you get your ‘facts’ from, they sound like propoganda, I’ve heard similar stuff before, and been certain that the speaker believed it. It’s not a criticism, just that sometimes we pick up ideas that just aren’t based on reality and it takes a bit of time to shake them off. People you trust can tell you things that turn out to be untrue. Sadly one learns not to trust what people say, hence the call for citation 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2007, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-palestine/396880/154 "2007-03-31T13:30:54Z")
Well this thread has devolved into a basic Israel vs. Arab debate so I may as well throw my two cents in. I find it hard to really align myself with either side. There are simply too many irrational religious people who worship land and ancient buildings. There are too many atrocities. Each news cycle is a race to the bottom in terms of the moral highground. However, the Arab world really has balls. Usually if country A invades country B in a war of conquest and loses badly then country A isn’t a country anymore. At least they get razed to the ground or have their military destroyed or get occupied for awhile until they learn to play nice. The Arab world tried to invade Israel and have their own holocaust not once but three times. And **they’re** pissed because Israel took some land for strategic depth. Oooook then…IMO the Arabs got off practically scot-free and should count their lucky stars they had the USSR to fall back on. ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2007, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-palestine/396880/155 "2007-03-31T16:04:47Z")
[QUOTE=Alessan] On the contrary - carpet bombing enemy cities is a supremely Western way of waging war. In fact, I’d call it a Western invention. [/QUOTE] Haha. So is the use of cluster bombs, eh? - Honesty ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2007, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-palestine/396880/156 "2007-03-31T16:54:56Z")
[QUOTE=Alessan] What you seem to be saying is that if your cities are being bombed, you should either respond in a pinpoint military fashion, or if circumstances don’t allow you to do that, you should do nothing. [/QUOTE] I’ve never alluded to the ridiculous notion that Israel should sit there and get attacked. Israel has its right to defend its country in whatever it sees fit; I’m just pointing out that Israel’s disregard for the civilians in the 2006 Israel-Lebanon War will go down in the pages of history as barbarous. If you think otherwise, you’re kidding yourself. - Honesty ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2007, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-palestine/396880/157 "2007-03-31T17:04:09Z")
[QUOTE=Honesty] I’ve never alluded to the ridiculous notion that Israel should sit there and get attacked. [/quote] Actually, you have, with your notion that Israel should not defend themselves if the terrorists use their own civilians as human shields. > [@](#): > > Israel has its right to defend its country in whatever it sees fit; I’m just pointing out that Israel’s disregard for the civilians in the 2006 Israel-Lebanon War will go down in the pages of history as barbarous. If you think otherwise, you’re kidding yourself. No, I think otherwise because you are dishonestly misrepresenting the nature of the case. I think the disregard by Hizbollah and Hamas of their own civilians is barbarous.I think deliberate attacking Israeli civilians is barbarous. So are most of your posts, so the hell with it. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2007, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-palestine/396880/158 "2007-04-01T05:20:23Z")
[QUOTE=col\_10022] I was inclined to think that the site was unbiased but I just read the link to the balfour amendment and thre was a right of return in that. The quote also mentions a massacre of Jews at Gush Etzion but does not mentions a massacre at Deir Yassein mentioned a few posts ago. The writing and tone sound reasonable but it doesn’t seem entirely balanced to me. [/QUOTE] A search of the site turns up 30 citations referencing Deir Yassin, including [this one.](http://www.mideastweb.org/log/archives/00000350.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2007, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-palestine/396880/159 "2007-04-01T10:09:21Z")
[QUOTE=RedRosesForMe] Yes, having travelled abroad and spoken to a handful of locals certainly qualifies one as an expert. Obviously those folks in Hicksville, OH can’t be well-educated and have an informed opinion. :rolleyes: [/QUOTE] Actually that was unfair of me I didnt mean to criticise any individual place or even size of place in the U.S. My real point was and is that living in a continent wide country there are one hell of a lot of Americans who are incredibly naive about life and thinking in any country abroad, even English speaking western ones ,ask any citizen of Eire their opinion of "plastic Paddies "as they tend to call Irish Americans let alone those of more exotic cultures . So that every shred of information received wether topical or reference is filtered through a media organisation or author. It seems to be prevalant in U.S. media that news on its own is somehow too dull,it must be given some sort of slant to make a name for the journo or take a stance even natural disasters have to have blame attributed to someone . Brash and flash ,lets not let the facts get in the way of a good story and possible personal fame and an award for the reporter. America has always been the front runner for this less then ethical and often shallow reporting and I can vouch for the fact that the U.K. media is fast catching up . The self congratulatory attitude of the U.S. press is viewed with amusement and sometimes with contempt by many others in the world . News events are not circus shows. The receivers opinion is served up with the report and in the interests of balance this is as true for Jewish oriented news as any other. Those with no personal experience of the subjects have nothing to “read between the lines” or" take with a pinch of salt" to help make their judgement on what they have just read . With college courses and textbooks the authors opinions come into play,political and national bias and political correctness and unbelievably even ignorance can alter the whole hue of the subjects. Many Irish histories demonise Britain,I have met more then a few Irish people who were nonplussed to say the least when they saw histories written outside of Eire and how different they were . There are Indian histories that deny "the Black Hole of Calcutta"was an actual event How many American histories even mention ,let alone realistically document the depth of organisation and involvement of Black Africans in rounding up ,holding ,disciplining and selling slaves? Must go now ,was joking about souveneir buying ,never get them ,they re usually made in other countries (like Moroccan Brasswork made in Birmingham England) ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2007, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-palestine/396880/160 "2007-04-01T14:16:37Z")
[QUOTE=col\_10022] Now you are hedging. You went from “they owned it, they can legally dispose of it as they wished” to “they effectively treated it as their property so they can legally dispose of it as they wish” There is also a big difference between creating a state that incites war (like Israel) and creating a state that doesn’t incite war (like Jordan). [/QUOTE] I was under the impression that Britain was handed the poison chalice. No volunteers for the job from the rest of the I.c.ommunity. .Didnt want it ,didnt ask for it ,knew it was going to be purgatory running it until for the Brits the inevitable lose ,lose situation. Blamed by both sides for favouring the other. All Britains fault of course but an amazing dearth of practical solutions from any of the other nations at the time . Note I did say practical. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-palestine/396880.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-palestine/396880.md?page=9)