# Free Palestine? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 21, 2007, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-palestine/396880 "2007-03-21T16:31:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 6\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2007, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-palestine/396880/161 "2007-04-01T21:18:20Z")
My take on immediate post 9/11 and ditto the tube bombings was U.K.Muslim spokesmen didnt say " these people are total and utter scum and there is absaloutly no justification for their sickminded actions" ,no it was always" well yes we cannot condone their actions BUT…"Always the but “You can understand that the Muslim population have reason to feel alienated” BUT “In some quarters out of desperation some misguided individuals felt driven to …” BUT and so on. Amongst the younger Muslim population the admiration felt for the terrorists was barely concealable even amongst those interviewed on national T.V. "WOW youve got to admire their courage " etc. A Pakistani corner shop owner told me that he was doing a thriving trade in vids of the atrocity to young and not so young Muslim lads . Maybe that trend wasnt reflected nationally I wouldn t know. Its good to know that though their parents and grandparents originally came from overseas British born Muslims hearts are as one with all the other Britsh ethnic components in our new improved multi cultural nation . No cheering on the Pakistani cricket team for them,or sending their kids to Madrassis and definitely not cheering when British troops are killed in Iraq and Afghanistan. Does anyone else get that warm feeling when they think about it or have I just pissed down my leg again ? ---
**Author:** ![FRDE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FRDE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FRDE)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2007, 9:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-palestine/396880/162 "2007-04-02T09:39:46Z")
In Luton after 7/7 young guys of Pakistani descent were driving round honking their horns and cheering. It was not reported, I only know because someone who lives there told me. Fortunately everyone I know of Moslem descent is just fine, but I don’t live in a ghetto. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2007, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-palestine/396880/163 "2007-04-02T13:17:10Z")
[QUOTE=RedRosesForMe] … they can’t ignore the millions of non-Jews who live in Israel or lived in Israel until the middle of the last century. [/QUOTE] I am mainly staying out of this thread, as it mainly is serving the needs of those who want to see only which is consistent with their own preconcieved ideas, but some misstatements need at least some correction. While Zionists did not enter an empty land they also did not enter an area with “millions” who had been living there previously. Zionist settlement between 1880 and 1948 did not dispossess anyone; Arabs moved to where Jews were settling. [The data](http://www.mideastweb.org/palpop.htm) can show that much at least. > [@](#): > > 1. The nature of the data do not permit precise conclusions about the Arab population of Palestine in Ottoman and British times, and the relative contributions of natural increase and immigration, imprecision in the counts and other issues. > 2. Palestine was not an empty land when Zionist immigration began. The lowest estimates claim there were about 410,000 Arab Muslims and Christians in Palestine in 1893. A Zionist estimate claimed there were over 600,000 Arabs in Palestine. in the 1890s. At this time, the number of Jewish immigrants to Palestine was still negligible by all accounts. It is unlikely that Palestinian immigration prior to this period was due to Zionist development. Though uncertainty exists concerning the precise numbers of Arabs living in the areas that later became Israel, it is very unlikely that the claims of Joan Peters that there were less than 100,000 Arabs living there are valid. > 3. Zionist settlement between 1880 and 1948 did not displace or dispossess Palestinians. Every indication is that there was net Arab immigration into Palestine in this period, and that the economic situation of Palestinian Arabs improved tremendously under the British Mandate relative to surrounding countries. By 1948, there were approximately 1.35 million Arabs and 650,000 Jews living between the Jordan and the Mediterranean, more Arabs than had ever lived in Palestine before, and more Jews than had lived there since Roman times. Analysis of population by subdistricts shows that Arab population tended to increase the most between 1931 and 1948 in the same areas where there were large proportions of Jews. Therefore, Zionist immigration did not displace Arabs. As to the future: The Israeli people will not accept any solution that ensures the destruction of a state with a Jewish identity. “One State” and “Right of Return” do that so will not occur. That is just reality. They will also not accept any solution that does not ensure more security than the sataus quo. Return to pre-1967 borders is less security, not more, until no terrorists exist. It will not happen. Any longterm solution must make for an economically viable Palestinian state. Ideally cooperatiion between a Palestinian state and Israel on development issues (industries, tax base, water mangement, etc.) is in everyone’s best interests. So long term the best answer for both parties will be a Palestinian state gradually working together with an Israel that has borders that are defensible and secure, with less need to expend resources on that defense as cooperation grows. The economic success of that neighboring Palestinian state would be in Israel’s interest as well. Getting there is the issue. Until such seems feasible then Israel’s least poor option is the “snapping turtle”: disengage behing a defensible shell and snap briefly at anyone who pokes in; wait for the other side to be really willing to talk about solutions that are actually possible. I remain hopeful that the time may come. ---
**Author:** ![FRDE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FRDE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FRDE)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2007, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-palestine/396880/164 "2007-04-03T11:47:20Z")
They will also not give up East Jerusalem and the new town built around it - they are just too proud of it ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2007, 8:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-palestine/396880/165 "2007-04-04T08:34:31Z")
[QUOTE=DSeid] … As to the future: The Israeli people will not accept any solution that ensures the destruction of a state with a Jewish identity. “One State” and “Right of Return” do that so will not occur. That is just reality. They will also not accept any solution that does not ensure more security than the sataus quo. Return to pre-1967 borders is less security, not more, until no terrorists exist. It will not happen… [/QUOTE] It seems to me rather that this depends on the volume and quality of persuasion brought to bear. ---
**Author:** ![FRDE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FRDE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FRDE)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2007, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-palestine/396880/166 "2007-04-04T12:47:29Z")
@ **Sevastopol** Have you been there ? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-palestine/396880.md?page=8)