# Free to play opinions. **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [June 29, 2013, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-to-play-opinions/662196 "2013-06-29T11:56:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Tabby\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tabby\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tabby_Cat)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2013, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-to-play-opinions/662196/22 "2013-07-03T00:50:12Z")
> [@hogarth](#): > > I’m not sure what you’re talking about. Do you have an example? > > For what it’s worth, my experiences are with Champions Online (which is perfectly playable solo up to high levels even with no one else around) and Dungeons & Dragons Online (which is playable solo up to a certain level, at which point I hit a brick wall and gave up) and various Facebook games (for which I don’t rely on friends to send me energy/coins/whatever). Here are a couple of articles, from game developers, about F2P vs paid games. > **[Blogs recent news | Game Developer](https://www.gamedeveloper.com/keyword/blogs)** > > Explore the latest news and expert commentary on Blogs, brought to you by the editors of Game Developer > **[Blogs recent news | Game Developer](https://www.gamedeveloper.com/keyword/blogs)** > > Explore the latest news and expert commentary on Blogs, brought to you by the editors of Game Developer It basically comes down to this: how can the developer force you, or trick you, into spending more money. Take candy crush, a single player game. You add timers, which can be bypassed with money (the game, stopping you from playing the game, unless you pay. Have you heard of this before F2P?). You add levels which are very very difficult to pass without spending real money, and this insidious thing is, the levels before that level could easily be passed without spending real money, so your brain doesn’t process that this is no longer a game of skill, but a paywall. Pay to win is especially bad in competitive games. Take Magic the Gathering, which is the most obvious example of pay to win. In this game, if you have certain _expensive_ cards, you have a decided advantage over your opponent. You literally “pay to win”. And if you don’t pay as much as your opponent, you start with a handicap. You can easily see why F2P developers think this is a great idea. ---
**Author:** ![Dave\_Hartwick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7feea3/32.png) [@Dave\_Hartwick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dave_Hartwick)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2013, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-to-play-opinions/662196/23 "2013-07-03T01:00:35Z")
I was reading the examples and thinking that I hadn’t actually tried many F2P games, but some later references reminded me of a few, like Kingdom of Loathing and SimCity Social. Neither games is a challenge, unless you accept a challenge like PvP or speedruns or something. I’d say that my experiences with it are favorable. The ones I tried were better than the average free browser-based game, and were playable without spending anything. The model allowed the KoL guy to keep going with his game long after he would have quit a labor of love. ---
**Author:** ![hogarth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hogarth/32/1773_2.png) [@hogarth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hogarth)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2013, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-to-play-opinions/662196/24 "2013-07-03T04:26:25Z")
> [@Airk](#): > > Sure; At the simplest level, it’s an MMO where you can play solo, but still interact with other people via the auction house, or by them being in the area and doing stuff that you are trying to do. [etc.] I don’t understand – this is an actual game that you’ve had problems with and you’re being coy about the name, or you’re just coming up with a hypothetical? > [@Tabby\_Cat](#): > > Pay to win is especially bad in competitive games. I agree, which is why I commented on solo (i.e. non-competitive) games. ---
**Author:** ![Airk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de053/32.png) [@Airk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airk)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2013, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-to-play-opinions/662196/25 "2013-07-03T14:38:32Z")
> [@hogarth](#): > > I don’t understand – this is an actual game that you’ve had problems with and you’re being coy about the name, or you’re just coming up with a hypothetical? This is a hypothetical, because I don’t play pay-to-win games. I thought it was a pretty clear cut example of how even when playing an MMO “solo”, you are influenced by other players. ---
**Author:** ![hogarth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hogarth/32/1773_2.png) [@hogarth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hogarth)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2013, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-to-play-opinions/662196/26 "2013-07-03T14:45:15Z")
> [@Airk](#): > > This is a hypothetical, because I don’t play pay-to-win games. I thought it was a pretty clear cut example of how even when playing an MMO “solo”, you are influenced by other players. I stand by my initial remark: Why should I care if I’m being influenced by other people playing money if the game is entertaining? ---
**Author:** ![Airk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de053/32.png) [@Airk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airk)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2013, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-to-play-opinions/662196/27 "2013-07-03T15:29:41Z")
> [@hogarth](#): > > I stand by my initial remark: Why should I care if I’m being influenced by other people playing money if the game is entertaining? You shouldn’t. But you should understand that not everyone feels that “influence” is as benign as you do. Just because you are playing “solo” doesn’t mean that what other people do in the game has no impact on you. ---
**Author:** ![Teuton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/teuton/32/3864_2.png) [@Teuton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Teuton)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2013, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-to-play-opinions/662196/28 "2013-07-03T17:16:13Z")
> [@Tabby\_Cat](#): > > (the game, stopping you from playing the game, unless you pay. Have you heard of this before F2P?). Well, subscription games worked this way. > [@](#): > > Pay to win is especially bad in competitive games. Take Magic the Gathering, which is the most obvious example of pay to win. In this game, if you have certain _expensive_ cards, you have a decided advantage over your opponent. You literally “pay to win”. And if you don’t pay as much as your opponent, you start with a handicap. You can easily see why F2P developers think this is a great idea. You’ve mentioned MtG a few times now and, whilst you can call it pay to win (although the big tournaments are sealed deck to prevent this very problem, aren’t they?), it’s not free to play. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2013, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-to-play-opinions/662196/29 "2013-07-03T17:20:59Z")
I’m alright with what amounts to a demo being available, and then the rest of the game unlocked for a fee. But I cannot stand and will not play any game that requires in app purchases to make it anywhere near possible to win. I don’t play online but if I did a person beating me because they spent more would be the end of it for me. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2013, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-to-play-opinions/662196/30 "2013-07-03T17:40:50Z")
> [@Teuton](#): > > Quite a lot of them _aren’t_ second rate products, of course. Team Fortress 2, LotRO, Tribes: Ascend, World of Tanks and League Of Legends are all examples of FTP games with microtransactions that have good production values. > > You say, **SenorBeef** , that you’re more lenient towards games that purely provide cosmetic items. Would you play a FTP game if it was built on that basis? And would you give them any money? (Yes, I know you said this a while back. It’s exactly worth responding to.) Guild Wars 2 is not only my favorite game these days, it’s also perhaps the best MMO ever created, _period_. It may not be for everyone, but it avoids all the classic traps, neither is nor tries to be another WoW clone, and is simply a purchased product. Technically, it’s not F2P - but unlike any other MMO out there, there’s no ongoing fee or subscription basis even being offered. The game store is simply for cosmetic gear, but by all accounts it’s profitable enough they’re not only constantly adding new events, but are actually accelerating their pipeline. You can technically trade back and forth between in-game and game store currency, so in theory you can use it to buy better stuff. But as there’s no gear treadmill only a handful of top-level items are worth it… and those items aren’t actually better stat-wise than a good-quality drop you can afford with in-game gold anyhow. So, yeah. _I_ would at any rate. ---
**Author:** ![Tabby\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tabby\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tabby_Cat)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2013, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-to-play-opinions/662196/31 "2013-07-04T00:51:38Z")
> [@Teuton](#): > > Well, subscription games worked this way. With subscription games, you paid for the month, and were free to play during the month as much as you liked. They didn’t cut you off as soon as the fun was getting good and saying “nuh uh, you gotta pay, or it doesn’t get fun”. And you can pay a LOT more for “F2P” than subscription. > [@](#): > > You’ve mentioned MtG a few times now and, whilst you can call it pay to win (although the big tournaments are sealed deck to prevent this very problem, aren’t they?), it’s not free to play. You don’t have to be F2P to be “play to win”, of course. But they tend to go together. The Korean and Chinese MMOs tend to be the biggest offenders, but you wouldn’t hear about those. Anyway, the illustration was to show people to said that “pay to win” wasn’t a problem - I think it very much is. ---
**Author:** ![Teuton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/teuton/32/3864_2.png) [@Teuton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Teuton)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2013, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-to-play-opinions/662196/32 "2013-07-04T10:54:55Z")
I thought I’d mentioned how interesting those links were, TabbyCat, but I see I didn’t. There is a definite money grab noticeable in the casual end of the market, and those links provide some reasons why. The other interesting aspect of these games is the tendency for them to try and get you to rope friends into playing in lieu of cash payments. I must admit, I avoid those myself. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-to-play-opinions/662196.md?page=1)