# Free Trade Liars **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 17, 2016, 9:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-trade-liars/749241 "2016-03-17T09:56:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2016, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-trade-liars/749241/41 "2016-03-18T03:10:38Z")
Reass, Gardhole ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2016, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-trade-liars/749241/42 "2016-03-18T11:15:16Z")
Please cite where I lied about your position. I’ll make it easy for you and other folks following along - below are all my posts in that thread. To summarise - You constantly claimed that you were concerned about slavery in a thread about free trade. I asked you to substantiate. You gave me an anecdote about slavery in Thailand. I pointed out that if you want a discussion of slavery in the context of free trade, \*\*you have to show a causal link \*\* between free trade and slavery. As any economist knows, good intentions very often pave the road to worse outcomes. Instead of discussing this rationally, you became strangely unhinged in that thread. Is this personally important to you in some way? > [@Are there good reasons to be anti-free trade?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-good-reasons-to-be-anti-free-trade/743281/119): > > I’m curious. Where in the world is the large scale slave led production happening? > [@Are there good reasons to be anti-free trade?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-good-reasons-to-be-anti-free-trade/743281/120): > > There are numerous reports coming out of Thailand and Burma that there’s slavery going on (particularly in the fishing industry). Here’s one example: > > [22 years a slave in Asia's forced fishing industry - CBS News](http://www.cbsnews.com/news/burmese-slave-freed-22-years-southeast-asia-forced-fishing-slavery/) > > I’ve got more if you want it. > > Just to head this off, though, since everyone keeps lying in this thread: > > I haven’t made any claims about how widespread this is. What I’ve said is that I’m concerned about this, and if someone is advocating free trade, they need to tell me how to address this concern. And I’ve said the data I’m seeing (because I’m seeing a lot of reports out of Burma and Thailand) contradict the one economic model proposed in this thread for reducing this problem. And I’ve said that if someone wants to convince me that the proposed economic model will actually reduce slavery, I’m willing to listen, but they have to do some data crunching. > > But, given how this thread has been going, there will probably be a few people along shortly to lie about my position. > [@Are there good reasons to be anti-free trade?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-good-reasons-to-be-anti-free-trade/743281/123): > > I’ll bother you to make a claim then. Because if you want people to address your concern regarding what’s widely recognised as a effective mechanism for increasing overall prosperity (I take it you’re not debating this point?), it falls on you to first establish the concern is valid. > [@Are there good reasons to be anti-free trade?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-good-reasons-to-be-anti-free-trade/743281/130): > > First of all, because you have to establish that there is a statistically significant problem of slavery that exists. A few anecdotes that some people in some countries have been forced to work for X years is simply not enough to base public policy on. > > Secondly, _you_ have to establish a statistically significant causal link between free trade and slavery. I don’t find it hard to believe that Burmese workers desperate to find better living and working conditions wouldn’t end up in similar conditions anyway, free trade or no. > > Your question is too imprecise to answer. I am of course not OK with slavery at any point. But that doesn’t mean I would oppose free trade among countries if a small number of slaves were being used to supply labour in some of them. > > Let’s take the example of Bangladesh that you brought up earlier. It is true that many work in dangerous conditions, which occasionally results in tragic loss of life, but if someone was to argue on that basis for Bangladesh to institute regulations which result in the apparel industry in Bangladesh becoming uncompetitive, the utilitarian in me certainly thinks that would be a greater tragedy. Does that make me OK with loss of life? I don’t think so, but you’re welcome to your own interpretation. > [@Are there good reasons to be anti-free trade?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-good-reasons-to-be-anti-free-trade/743281/132): > > Pardon me? What am I lying about? Besides which, am I posting in the pit without realising it? > > Also, the plural of anecdote is not data. If you have data, you should post it, instead of just threatening that you will. > > Who’s stopping anyone from not trading with someone they don’t want to trade with? If all you want is a mechanism to deal with slavery (such would generally come under domestic law and police), why do you want to bring it up in a thread about free trade? I agree that there ought to be a mechanism to deal with slavery. What does it have to do with trade? Why are you posting about it in this thread? > > I noted earlier “which result in the apparel industry in Bangladesh becoming uncompetitive” so it’s factored into my hypothetical. But beyond that, I can say for a fact (because the analysis has been done by many economists, read for e.g, Besley and Burgess) that India’s labour regulations have prevented growth, particularly in labour intensive sectors. It’s very plausible that this is why Bangladesh has a much larger apparel exporting sector (relative to its smaller size) than India, since otherwise the two countries are very similar. So harsher labour regulations in Bangladesh would likely reduce their comparative advantage strongly, and hurt them on the margins. I think opposing free trade\* or western countries insisting on better or worse regulations is just the perfect being the enemy of the good. Buy the stuff if you like it and it comes to you cheaper than you can make it. Let the countries and people providing it to you sort out their own issues. They’ll probably end up better for it than if you try and stuff your solutions down their throats. > \*and before you accuse me of lying again, I’m not claiming this is what you’re doing, though I do wish you’d tell us what exactly your position is > [@Are there good reasons to be anti-free trade?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-good-reasons-to-be-anti-free-trade/743281/141): > > This is strange. I specifically asked you to go ahead and make a claim about slavery and support it. And then I asked you to post data instead of threatening to do it, but you’re still just threatening. > And that is why you need to show that trade is driving slavery. If slavery is ocurring independently of trade, then by slapping a tariff, you may not help the slaves, but you will hurt the economy. In general equilibrium, you may even make the condition of those slaves worse, if their owners switch to serving the domestic market instead, and decide to squeeze their slaves to keep their own profits constant. > > Once again, I refute that I have lied about a single thing in my statements, or misrepresented what you’re saying. > > [Here you go](http://econ.lse.ac.uk/staff/rburgess/wp/indreg.pdf) > > On the contrary, using US trade power to try and fix complex local issues \* is \* stuffing a solution down their throats, and a solution by which you’ll likely end up harming more people than you help, including the ones you want to help. > > ETA: Didn’t notice he was suspended. BnS, I think you’re a good poster, but it’s unfortunate that you’ve become so agitated in your responses in this thread. We can continue the conversation when you’re back and calmer. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2016, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-trade-liars/749241/43 "2016-03-18T11:28:00Z")
> [@BrightNShiny](#): > > So, first of all, I never claimed that free-trade is driving slavery. Obviously, we’ve had slavery in periods with restricted trade. What I said is that I’m concerned about slavery and that US trade power can help to solve that problem. But because **bldysabba** is a lying piece of shit, he/she wants to pretend I claimed something else. > > Ok, but there is actually a substance of an argument in his/her lying bullshit which is this: > > Yeah? Listen up you dumbshit, I am opposed to slavery period. If you have a study that shows that slaves are better off under slavery, produce it (but I don’t actually think you have one). Otherwise, shut the fuck up, you lying piece of crap. Because what you have claimed here is that the economy as a whole _might_ be better off with slavery, which doesn’t actually address my complaint. God, you are a terrible person. Inspite of the incredible amount of vitriol you’re spewing at me for reasons I can’t entirely fathom, I’ll be polite one more time. You are concerned about slavery and believe that US trade power can help solve that problem. THAT IS WHY I have asked you to show the causal link between trade and slavery. Like I said in that thread, I don’t find it hard to believe that poor Burmese fishermen would end up getting exploited by Thai businessmen regardless of whether or not there are tariffs imposed on trade. A slave is cheaper than a worker whether you’re producing for the domestic market or for export. Without you having shown that causal link, I think it’s pretty likely that trying to use US trade power to fix a problem that has much more to do with local laws and institutions is bound to do more harm than good. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2016, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-trade-liars/749241/44 "2016-03-18T11:44:13Z")
> [@BrightNShiny](#): > > Uh, no, you lying idiot. When I explain a particular economics argument and state that that particular argument doesn’t apply to other areas, that’s not a statement that I agree with each of those other areas. That’s a lie you made up. You are pig-ignorant motherfucker who doesn’t understand basic economic concepts, and when people try to explain them to you, you lie. > > I specifically said exactly what I was talking about in that post, so as to try to avoid confusion. And instead of asking about the actual argument I was laying out, you lied. Because you’re a liar. > > None of which actually responds to anything I said in that thread or this one, you liar. > > Your last post in this thread. Every post of yours in this thread. I can tell you are upset. I didn’t mean to upset you. Maybe we should work on our communication to avoid these problems in the future. I’m at a loss for words right now, so I’d like to share something with you now. [![](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/tuoGt64dCYI/hqdefault.jpg "Ruben Studdard- Sorry 2004 With Lyrics .") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuoGt64dCYI) ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2016, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-trade-liars/749241/45 "2016-03-18T12:21:06Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > I can tell you are upset. > > I didn’t mean to upset you. > > Maybe we should work on our communication to avoid these problems in the future. > > I’m at a loss for words right now, so I’d like to share something with you now. > > [https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tuoGt64dCYI](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tuoGt64dCYI) I can tell you’re a liar. Maybe we should work on your need to constantly lie. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2016, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-trade-liars/749241/46 "2016-03-18T12:25:58Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > Inspite of the incredible amount of vitriol you’re spewing at me for reasons I can’t entirely fathom, I’ll be polite one more time. You are concerned about slavery and believe that US trade power can help solve that problem. THAT IS WHY I have asked you to show the causal link between trade and slavery. Oh, I am so done dealing with this lying bullshit. I have not claimed that free-trade is a cause of slavery, so why the hell should I show a causal link? Keep lying, asshole. But the idea that regulations or financial penalties will have a tendency to discentivize a specific behavior is old-hat economics. The idea that incentives affect behavior is one of the foundational assumptions of capitalist economic theory. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2016, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-trade-liars/749241/47 "2016-03-18T14:14:56Z")
> [@BrightNShiny](#): > > Oh, I am so done dealing with this lying bullshit. I have not claimed that free-trade is a cause of slavery, so why the hell should I show a causal link? Keep lying, asshole. Much as I don’t like lowering myself to your level, you need to show a causal link because, you mentally incapable drooling idiot who doesn’t understand what a causal link means, YOU keep claiming that changing trade rules WILL CAUSE AN IMPACT ON SLAVERY. > [@](#): > > But the idea that regulations or financial penalties will have a tendency to discentivize a specific behavior is old-hat economics. The idea that incentives affect behavior is one of the foundational assumptions of capitalist economic theory. Only where incentives or disincentives have an actual causal link to the underlying behaviour and can be applied consistently. Empirical economics is chock full of examples where well intentioned incentives/disincentives distort markets and result in worse outcomes. As just one example that I know very well, India has some of the strictest labour regulations in the developing world, championed by morons just like you. Does this mean Indian labourers are some of the best protected in the world? No, it just means that most Indian labour operates in the informal sector, where they are covered by NO regulations at all. And this isn’t even taking into account the unseen counterfactual where poorer worker protections could see much more work and prosperity(in relative terms) for many more people, albeit with higher costs borne by a very few, ala Bangladesh. And I’ve already given you a very plausible scenario where the same thing could happen to slaves in South East Asia. I’ll repeat myself again using small words since you don’t seem to have the required number of functioning brain cells to process anything else. Slave owner in poor country catches fish, sells to USA! USA think slave owner bad man, slaps tax on slave owner! Slave owner shrug shoulders, sell to own country instead. Slave owner make less money now, maybe treat slaves worse than before Slave owner pay less money in taxes, less chance for his country to develop Slaves, worse off People in poor country, worse off People in USA pay more money for fish, worse off Everybody worse off other than the smug righteous asshole who’s pleased he’s done ‘something’ about slavery. ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2016, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-trade-liars/749241/48 "2016-03-18T14:29:19Z")
Bright, as a fairly neutral observer I’ve got to say I’m not seeing any lying in that thread or here. You seem very worried about slavery and want to cut off free trade with any place that might have slavery. While the people arguing against you are saying that everyone’s life is better or at least no worse if we have free trade and that included the slaves. Their argument is much more convincing then yours is unless you can show that my life wouldn’t be worse and the slave’s life wouldn’t be worse if we restricted trade with the slavers. I find it very easy to believe that as imports become cheaper some of them get used to improve the lives of slaves even if it is something a simple as it is worth giving them a new pair of shoes each year because it only costs $0.50 and them cutting their foot is more expensive but if the price of shoes goes up to $1 maybe them walking around on bloddy stumps is preferable. I think you would be better of leaving the trade barriers down and educating people to boycott products made by slaves that is the economic pressure that will work and not harm the people you care about. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2016, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-trade-liars/749241/49 "2016-03-18T14:42:43Z")
> [@Oredigger77](#): > > Bright, as a fairly neutral observer I’ve got to say I’m not seeing any lying in that thread or here. You seem very worried about slavery and want to cut off free trade with any place that might have slavery. This is such bullshit. As I pointed out repeatedly in the thread, we can target sanctions against specific industries that are using slavery. > [@](#): > > While the people arguing against you are saying that everyone’s life is better or at least no worse if we have free trade and that included the slaves. Nope. I gave them that out. I said that if they are okay with slavery, then we have a fundamental disagreement about how to structure the economy. If they had just said “yes, we think slavery is okay,” then I probably would have not have continued, since I can’t fathom how people can actually think that slavery is okay. But instead, they repeatedly lied about my position. > [@](#): > > Their argument is much more convincing then yours is unless you can show that my life wouldn’t be worse and the slave’s life wouldn’t be worse if we restricted trade with the slavers. I find it very easy to believe that as imports become cheaper some of them get used to improve the lives of slaves even if it is something a simple as it is worth giving them a new pair of shoes each year because it only costs $0.50 and them cutting their foot is more expensive but if the price of shoes goes up to $1 maybe them walking around on bloddy stumps is preferable. I think you would be better of leaving the trade barriers down and educating people to boycott products made by slaves that is the economic pressure that will work and not harm the people you care about. I don’t really give a crap what you find “easier” to believe. We’re talking about economics here, so if you have evidence that slaves are better off under a slavery system than a non-slavery system, produce a study. And when we’re talking about slavery, I don’t really give a crap if your own pocketbook might be worse off in a non-slavery system. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2016, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-trade-liars/749241/50 "2016-03-18T14:50:42Z")
> [@Oredigger77](#): > > You seem very worried about slavery and want to cut off free trade with any place that might have slavery. I want to clarify this here. I don’t know how you are using the term “place” here. If you are trying to claim that I advocated total sanctions against a country when a specific industry is using slave labor, then you are lying. If you are claiming something else, then you need to clarify. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2016, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-trade-liars/749241/51 "2016-03-18T14:59:55Z")
Up your dosage. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2016, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-trade-liars/749241/52 "2016-03-18T15:01:35Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Up your dosage. > > Regards, > Shodan Regards, You’re an asshole. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2016, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-trade-liars/749241/53 "2016-03-18T15:11:38Z")
If you are trying to be a wit, you are half way there. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2016, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-trade-liars/749241/54 "2016-03-18T15:12:20Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > If you are trying to be a wit, you are half way there. > > Regards, > Shodan Regards, You’re an asshole. ---
**Author:** ![Paranoid\_Randroid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/paranoid_randroid/32/18_2.png) [@Paranoid\_Randroid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paranoid_Randroid)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2016, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-trade-liars/749241/55 "2016-03-18T15:23:05Z")
> [@BrightNShiny](#): > > But the idea that regulations or financial penalties will have a tendency to discentivize a specific behavior is old-hat economics. Yes. But in order for the incentive to impact behavior, there has to be some sort of causal link. That’s just what it would mean for a change in incentives to have any effect whatsoever. I don’t know if you’re just so hung up on a specific, narrow notion of “cause” that any disagreement makes you go apoplectic or what, but you’re coming off as a bit unhinged. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2016, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-trade-liars/749241/56 "2016-03-18T15:27:31Z")
> [@BrightNShiny](#): > > Regards, > > You’re an asshole. Looks like I was wrong. It’s just deeply pathetic, instead. **BrightNShiny** , have you considered the possibility that, rather than all these people lying about what you’ve said, that instead you’re just spectacularly bad at expressing yourself? Certainly, your exercise of wit (such as it is) in this thread demonstrates someone who is not comfortably at home with the written word. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2016, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-trade-liars/749241/57 "2016-03-18T15:41:35Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Looks like I was wrong. It’s just deeply pathetic, instead. > > **BrightNShiny** , have you considered the possibility that, rather than all these people lying about what you’ve said, that instead you’re just spectacularly bad at expressing yourself? Certainly, your exercise of wit (such as it is) in this thread demonstrates someone who is not comfortably at home with the written word. Uh, no. Let me explain it to you clearly, you dumbfuck. If I make this statement: > [@](#): > > Arguments about comparative advantage do not address national security arguments about Cuba sanctions. This is not a statement that I support Cuba sanctions. This is not a statement that I’m against Cuba sanctions. This is not a statement that I support free trade. Or that I’m against free trade. Or that I support protectionism. Or that I’m against protectionism. Or that I think Tom Cruise is the best actor in the world. Or that I think he’s the shittiest actor in the world. But, hey, a lot of dumbfucks are going to try and pretend I have those positions. Economics is a complex topic. I’m happy to explain it or debate it with people who are actually willing to do that. But I’m tired of listing to dumbfucks who don’t know about the topic throwing strawmen at me. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2016, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-trade-liars/749241/58 "2016-03-18T15:52:12Z")
> [@BrightNShiny](#): > > Economics is a complex topic. Maybe you could try sounding out the big words? ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2016, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-trade-liars/749241/59 "2016-03-18T15:53:46Z")
> [@Paranoid\_Randroid](#): > > Yes. But in order for the incentive to impact behavior, there has to be some sort of causal link. That’s just what it would mean for a change in incentives to have any effect whatsoever. I don’t know if you’re just so hung up on a specific, narrow notion of “cause” that any disagreement makes you go apoplectic or what, but you’re coming off as a bit unhinged. This is a definitional change in the term “causal.” You and **bldysabba** discuss how you are using the term and get back to me. But, if I were to fine people who are making widgets, are you really trying to claim that we shouldn’t get less widgets? I mean, I’m not an Econ 101 fanaticist, so I’d be willing to entertain the notion that this might be true in the widget market. But if we’re debating capitalist economics, then I think the starting assumption has to be that a ban or a fine will disincentivize something, and it’s up to you to explain why it doesn’t work that way in the widget market. And there are markets that do function this way (like illegal drugs), but you can’t just point at those markets and tell me that the slavery “market” works this way without an argument. EDIT: All the “yous” here in the 2nd paragraph are general “you,” not referring to the poster I was responding to. ---
**Author:** ![Paranoid\_Randroid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/paranoid_randroid/32/18_2.png) [@Paranoid\_Randroid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paranoid_Randroid)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2016, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-trade-liars/749241/60 "2016-03-18T16:04:41Z")
> [@BrightNShiny](#): > > This is a definitional change in the term “causal.” You and bldysabba discuss how you are using the term and get back to me. Or perhaps you could explain what _you_ mean by ‘causal’. Let’s explore for a moment what it would mean for there to be no causal link whatosever between trade and slavery. This would imply that, no matter how you tinkered with the parameters of trade, you could have no impact whatseover on slavery. Whatever changes Nation A made to their practice of free trade with Nation B, no chain of causes and effects would reach Nation B’s use of slave labor. We could take another example. You wrote about incentives; when I was in grad school (for economics, no less!), I did research on how incentives can impact health behaviors (specifically smoking). If we want to know how taxes on cigarettes affect smoking behavior, there has to be a causal link between the two. Taxes -\> higher prices -\> less smoking, for example. That doesn’t mean taxes were the sole, direct cause of smoking, which I suspect is how you’re idiosyncratically using ‘causal’ here. So if you say “changes to free trade can impact slavery”, and someone asks you for the causal link you posit between free trade and slavery, they’re not ‘lying’ or strawmanning you or whatever else is going on in your crazy head. > [@](#): > > But, if I were to fine people who are making widgets, I’m ignoring this because it has no bearing on my participation in this conversation. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-trade-liars/749241.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-trade-liars/749241.md?page=4)