# free will and the will of god **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 13, 2000, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-and-the-will-of-god/29158 "2000-08-13T03:42:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2000, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-and-the-will-of-god/29158/21 "2000-08-15T17:22:49Z")
> [@](#): > > There is no logically consistent way to reconcile omniscience and free will. If there is a being that knows everything, then that being must know all choices that will be made (or all possible choices, there is no difference.) If that being knows what choices will be made, then there is no free will. You are following a path which is previously known, and can be described. Therefore, there is no freedom of choice. Nonsense. God knows no more than you do. You are omniscient in matters of your own will. > [@](#): > > Or you can believe like I do, and just say the whole religion thing is a load of hokum. Amen to that. Religion sucks. ---
**Author:** ![jb\_farley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9d8465/32.png) [@jb\_farley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jb_farley)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2000, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-and-the-will-of-god/29158/22 "2000-08-15T17:41:41Z")
Oge (may I call you Oge?), I actually do believe in the whole Star-Trek-esque quantum branching of reality and each juncture of choice. However, I don’t see that as somehow antithetical to free will. I call it karmic surfing. So if all of these possibilities and ramifications have been laid out beforehand, we have to reconsider the ‘self’. Are all of my other alter egos me? No, but they do share in some aspect of my self. There exists within me a potential for great evil, as well as magnificent transcendence. There’s gotta be me’s somewhere who actualize those potentials. So ‘self’ is less about the choices made and the circumstances encountered than it is the little controller that is steering this particular me. My true self is both the sum of all possible me’s as well as this little dude surfing the streams of karmic consciousness. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2000, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-and-the-will-of-god/29158/23 "2000-08-15T17:44:37Z")
oldscratch: > [@](#): > > But then he is removing the free will of X. If X is destined to die, it makes no difference what actions X performs. So? I don’t see how this negates the general principle being illustrated. > [@](#): > > And since X is supposed to die anyway it seems somewhat…I don’t know… hypocritical (not the exact word, but I just had a mental block) for him to condemn Y for simply carrying out the action, It’s not hypocritical (or whatever word you were trying to think of), since Y had been commanded not to kill. Unless Y had received some sort of divine prophecy telling him that his normal prohobition of murder does not apply to X at this time (and I’m not referring to such an unusual situation), he is still commanded not to kill X. Even if he had some sort of divine knowledge that X was destined to die, he never received any indication that it was _his_ job to make it happen, therefore his obligation not to murder is still in force. > [@](#): > > , especially when G-d temted Y. If I know someone is mentally unstable and I go and exhort them to perform some action, it wouldn’t be right for me to then condemn them for that action. G-d did not **exhort** Y to kill X. In fact, he commanded him not to murder. He did provide a temptation, but what is the point of a commandment that there is no temptation to violate it? A commandment means you’re supposed to do the commandment, even if your natural inclination is that you’re tempted not to. > [@](#): > > But, how do we know that he had free choice? How do we know how much G-d influenced him? Well, that’s pretty much the same question as “How do we know free choice exists at all?” Free choice is one of the tenets of Western religion. It can’t be proven. However, what I tried to illustrate is the religious view (at least the Orthodox Jewish one) of how G-d’s having a divine plan and human free choice co-exist. Chaim Mattis Keller ---
**Author:** ![jb\_farley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9d8465/32.png) [@jb\_farley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jb_farley)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2000, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-and-the-will-of-god/29158/24 "2000-08-15T18:08:40Z")
Chaim, there’s simply too many holes in your reasoning that I see. For one thing, you said, “A commandment means you’re supposed to do the commandment, even if your natural inclination is that you’re tempted not to.” but in the very example you are using, the driving force is **not** natural inclination, but the action of god. How can god possibly be worth worshipping if he is actively and emphatically trying to make you break rules, which he himself made and for which he will punish you for? And how do you reckon with mass death? You really believe that all of the people on the flight over lockerbie would have died separately had terrorists not planted a bomb? Shouldn’t that mean that stillbirths and miscarriages should have dropped by a super significant amount once abortion was legalized and practiced on a grand scale in this country? ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2000, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-and-the-will-of-god/29158/25 "2000-08-15T18:26:00Z")
**Libertarian,** > [@](#): > > Nonsense. God knows no more than you do. You are omniscient in matters of your own will. If God knows no more than I do, then he is unworthy of worship. However, the Xtian idea of God is universally omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. This certainly implies that said sky fairy should “know more than I do.” Besides, if I am omniscient in matters of my own will, and I were able to create living organisms in such a way that I knew _everything_ about them, they wouldn’t have free will either. **jb** : I would be honored to be called “Oge.” 🙂 I swear to, umm…whatever, that I’m not trying to be arrogant here, but while I do agree that the “many branches” approach to cause and effect is attractive, there’s not a whole lot of evidence to support it. Even quantum mechanics, the idea’s supposed foundation, is having a hard time backing it up these days. The whole thing rather hinges on the speed of light. Check this out for an overview: [http://dabui.econ.hc.keio.ac.jp/~ken/physics-faq/FTL.html](http://dabui.econ.hc.keio.ac.jp/~ken/physics-faq/FTL.html) That sort of means, given the evidence that I’ve seen, that as attractive as the idea is, there’s no true logical grounding for it. If there is, I’d be more than happy to see it. **cmkeller** : > [@](#): > > G-d did not exhort Y to kill X. In fact, he commanded him not to murder. He did provide a temptation, but what is the point of a commandment that there is no temptation to violate it? A commandment means you’re supposed to do the commandment, even if your natural inclination is that you’re tempted not to. All of which makes this “God” being damned petty. He creates us to have these urges (I’m speaking here of biological urges…sex, etc.,) then he commands us not to pay them heed. Then he says, “if you don’t do as I say, regardless of the fact that I created you to feel the opposite way, you’re going to Hell.” Sounds like we’re nothing but playthings to me. ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2000, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-and-the-will-of-god/29158/26 "2000-08-15T19:01:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ogre \* > **However, the Xtian idea of God is universally omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent.** Since when? Look, here is a link to the _entire_ [Catechism of the Catholic Church](http://www.christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/ccc_cont.html) – of which a majority of Xtians belong. Show me where in there it says anything of the sort. It does say God is almighty – and I suppose that is basically true, but that is not the same thing as those attributes you have listed above. And I can’t believe Jews now believe not only that everyone goes to heaven but _also_ in predetermination. Makes me wonder if Calvin wasn’t a double agent! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2000, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-and-the-will-of-god/29158/27 "2000-08-15T19:18:52Z")
jb\_farley: > [@](#): > > Chaim, there’s simply too many holes in your reasoning that I see. For one thing, you said, “A commandment means you’re supposed to do the commandment, even if your natural inclination is that you’re tempted not to.” but in the very example you are using, the driving force is not natural inclination, but the action of god. No, G-d merely gives him the _opportunity_. The inclination is his natural one. > [@](#): > > How can god possibly be worth worshipping if he is actively and emphatically trying to make you break rules, which he himself made and for which he will punish you for? But he will also reward you for obeying those rules in the face of temptation, whereas you get no reward for obeying a rule when there is no temptation to break it (because why do you deserve a reward for not doing what you simply can’t do?). Why do you think only about the negative angle? Of course if you only think of the potential punishment and not of the potential reward you don’t see G-d as a decent being. Ogre: > [@](#): > > He creates us to have these urges (I’m speaking here of biological urges…sex, etc.,) then he commands us not to pay them heed. Not true. He commands us to use them _properly_ (by his definition, of course). He does not command us to ignore them completely; merely that we harness them to his service rather than become driven by them completely. > [@](#): > > Then he says, “if you don’t do as I say, regardless of the fact that I created you to feel the opposite way, you’re going to Hell.” See my above comments to jb\_farley. Why do you insist on emphasizing the negative and ignoring the positive? Chaim Mattis Keller ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2000, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-and-the-will-of-god/29158/28 "2000-08-15T19:49:33Z")
> [@](#): > > If God knows no more than I do, then [He] is unworthy of worship. In matters of your will, as I made plain. If He knew more than you do in matters of your will, then you would not have His Spirit in your heart. > [@](#): > > However, the Xtian idea of God is universally omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. This certainly implies that said sky fairy should “know more than I do.” Not about your will. He is **IN** you. > [@](#): > > Besides, if I am omniscient in matters of my own will, and I were able to create living organisms in such a way that I knew everything about them, they wouldn’t have free will either. On the contrary, they would have no free will if you knew _more than_ they do. Are you familiar with the Austrian School theory of an economic praxis? If so, you will find an analogy there. Sometimes it seems that atheists, especially the evangelical ones, presume that they have no free will if a camera (metaphor for God) is following them around, and that just makes no sense. Just because what you do is recorded and seen does not mean that you are not free to pull out your woody and shake it at the camera. After all, you’re doing that now. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2000, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-and-the-will-of-god/29158/29 "2000-08-15T20:19:38Z")
**jmullaney** , Thank you for the link to the Catechism. It’s very much appreciated. I’ve responded below with scriptural basis for my statement. **Omniscience:** John 21:17: “Thou knowest all things.” John 2:24, 25: “But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men, and needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.” John 16:30: “Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.” Psalms 139:1 6: “O Lord, thou hast searched me, and known me. Thou knowest my down sitting and mine up rising; thou understandest my thought afar off. Thou compassest my path, and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways. For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O Lord, thou knowest it altogether. Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thy hand upon me. Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.” **Omnipresence:** Psalms 139:7 10: “Whither shall I go from thy Spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there; if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.” **Omnipotence:** Job 42:2: “I know that thou canst do everything.” Now, I don’t believe all this for a second, but it _is_ in the bible. **Libertarian:** Please see above. This is what the scriptural foundation of Christianity says. “Thou knowest all things” has no “wiggle room” for matters of personal will. Oh, and the “camera” didn’t create the person it’s watching. By the way, your snide little dig at the end of your post was inappropriate to intellectual discourse. I would appreciate an apology. **cmkeller:** I understand your points. Thank you for the refutation. However, the whole idea (to me) collapses because of the vagueness of the terms of God’s supposed will. One might think that the dictates of my creator would speak to me at least as clearly as the desire for sex. They don’t. In fact, they are so unclear that various parts of the bible completely contradict each other. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2000, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-and-the-will-of-god/29158/30 "2000-08-15T20:46:55Z")
Ogre: > [@](#): > > However, the whole idea (to me) collapses because of the vagueness of the terms of God’s supposed will. One might think that the dictates of my creator would speak to me at least as clearly as the desire for sex. They don’t. In fact, they are so unclear that various parts of the bible completely contradict each other. Well, we Orthodox Jews believe we’ve got an Oral Tradition dating back to Sinai just like the written text most people are familiar with, that clarifies what seems unclear. This is what has eventually been written down in the Talmud. But I do understand how, for one unversed in it, it can seem unclear. Chaim Mattis Keller ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2000, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-and-the-will-of-god/29158/31 "2000-08-15T20:54:10Z")
So, cmkeller, how do I get this information? I’d love to find out what you mean. ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2000, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-and-the-will-of-god/29158/32 "2000-08-15T21:23:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ogre \* > **Omniscience:** > > John 21:17: “Thou knowest all things.” Well, OK, but this is taken completely out of context. > [@](#): > > [Jesus] said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time, “Do you love me?” And he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.” Jesus said to him, “Feed my sheep. Truly, truly, I say to you, when you were young, you girded yourself and walked where you would; but when you are old, you will stretch out your hands, and another will gird you and carry you where you do not wish to go.” There is no way to know what Peter meant by this statement. All things regarding to what? Furthermore, if Jesus already knew the answer – why the heck is he asking? This is actually more of a counter-example if you ask me. > [@](#): > > “[Now when he was in Jerusalem at the Passover feast, many believed in his name when they saw the signs which he did;]” John 2:24, 25: “But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men, and needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.” So? Jesus knew what men were like. That only requires some wisdom. You’ve never heard the phrase “ya know how people are!” before? They saw the signs and believed _in his name._ But that doesn’t mean they truly believed in him such that he would commit himself to them, because Jesus was not looking for followers who believed _in his name_ because they saw miracles, but rather those who follow his teachings. > [@](#): > > John 16:30: “Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.” John 16:31:"Jesus answered them, “Do you now believe?” Whoever spoke John 16:30 is probably being sarcastic once you read the near incomprehensible mumbo jumbo Jesus just spoke above it. I guess they didn’t have “:rolleyes:” back then. Jesus’s pointed question might be a mild rebuke to their sarcasm. Or, on second thought – they simply mean Jesus is wise. > [@](#): > > Psalms 139:1 6: “O Lord, thou hast searched me, and known me. Thou knowest my down sitting and mine up rising; thou understandest my thought afar off. Thou compassest my path, and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways. For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O Lord, thou knowest it altogether. Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thy hand upon me. Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.” This is clearly someone who is walking with God. God knows them and they know God. You can’t jump from there to omniscience. > [@](#): > > **Omnipresence:** > Psalms 139:7 10: “Whither shall I go from thy Spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there; if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.” Same guy as the last one. > [@](#): > > **Omnipotence:** > Job 42:2: “I know that thou canst do everything.” Well, Job is fiction of course. A comedy. God in the story is out to teach Job a lesson, and Job learns it. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2000, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-and-the-will-of-god/29158/33 "2000-08-15T21:34:41Z")
Ogre: > [@](#): > > So, cmkeller, how do I get this information? I’d love to find out what you mean. Well, if what you mean is information on specific vaguenesses/contradictions in the Bible (Old Testament), the Jewish posters on this board might be able to dig up such info. Although please do not post one of those standard “Biblical contradictions” lists that were written by wise-asses who just want to dis the Bible; stick to specific ones that you have a personal interest in understanding. If what you mean is information on what G-d expects of people in the general sense, I can give you some resources to tap which reflect my own preferred religion, but I’d prefer to do it off the board in private e-mail to avoid the appearance that I’m trying to “witness” here on the SDMB. Sure, it’s technically allowed, but it’s certainly frowned on. My e-mail address is public on this board. Chaim Mattis Keller [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-and-the-will-of-god/29158.md?page=1)