# Free Will is a Bug, not a Feature **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 20, 2015, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-is-a-bug-not-a-feature/735236 "2015-10-20T15:03:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Zyanthia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Zyanthia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zyanthia)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2015, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-is-a-bug-not-a-feature/735236/21 "2015-10-20T18:26:20Z")
Since I am perfect (shh, quit your giggling) I cannot have any bugs. Since I cannot have any bugs, I cannot have free will. Since I do not have free will, I have to post this against my will. Thanks for enslaving me ☹ ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2015, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-is-a-bug-not-a-feature/735236/22 "2015-10-20T18:28:56Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Doesn’t saying “You could \_\_\_\_\_ or you can \_\_\_\_\_” presuppose free will? I think he means that no matter what I do, the outcome will be a tuna sandwich\*. ---
**Author:** ![Stoneburg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Stoneburg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoneburg)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2015, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-is-a-bug-not-a-feature/735236/23 "2015-10-20T19:18:23Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Interesting claim. Are there any belief systems your religio/philosophical system _isn’t_ compatible with? Not that we are aware of, but it would be very interesting to conceive of one. Perhaps you can recommend one? ---
**Author:** ![Stoneburg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Stoneburg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoneburg)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2015, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-is-a-bug-not-a-feature/735236/24 "2015-10-20T19:22:04Z")
> [@Zyanthia](#): > > Since I am perfect (shh, quit your giggling) I cannot have any bugs. > > Since I cannot have any bugs, I cannot have free will. > > Since I do not have free will, I have to post this against my will. Thanks for enslaving me ☹ Excellent reasoning, and thank you. Let me add to that the perspective of the free will delusion as a meme that works differently on different levels. It’s function as a meme is to create a conflict or insolvable dilemma in the system, causing cognitive dissonance and forcing the system to attempt to either transcend, integrate or repress the dissonance. Looking at it from this perspectives, even parasites in an eco system are appreciated because they contribute to diversity, development and the fight/flight/freeze response that is needed for the game to start. Basically us non-parasites are running away from the parasites, and by doing so we end up getting where we were going anyway. Also, I did not enslave you, I created you out of myself and decided to have a little fun. If you’re disappointed in your experience you only have yourself to blame. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2015, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-is-a-bug-not-a-feature/735236/25 "2015-10-20T19:25:15Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > The use of the terms bug and feature implies requirements, specifications, and design of our mind/brain - none of which are in evidence. > > We know we don’t have totally free will. Many have all sorts of phobias and drives. We know we aren’t obvious automatons, since no one can predict the actions of another. So the answer is between these. And since the hypothesis of mostly free will fits our observations, I’ll go with that, even if it is an illusion. I disagree that no one can predict the actions of another. Ask me the right questions (“Are you hungry?” “What did you have for dinnner last night?” “Are you counting calories today or are you in the mood to pig out?”) and you can make a good prediction about whether I’m going to choose pizza or a salad for lunch. Hell, just stalk me for awhile. It won’t take long for you to predict everything from when I go to the toilet to what my favorite colors are. I’m a very predictable person. Most people are. It’s not that we can’t predict the actions of other people. It’s that you need a lot of information to develop a good model to explain any particular person’s behavior–and that information can’t be acquired wth our current technology. We can’t look at a person and know what their behavioral propensities, conditioned/learned responses, unconscious associations are. If we had the technology to measure these things, I am certain that we’d be expert prognosticators. ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2015, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-is-a-bug-not-a-feature/735236/26 "2015-10-20T19:39:41Z")
In sum: Free will is a subject acting on an object. The predicate of a fundamental subject/object division is not a sound one. See under [Cosmic Consciousness.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_Consciousness) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2015, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-is-a-bug-not-a-feature/735236/27 "2015-10-20T19:40:58Z")
> [@Stoneburg](#): > > Not that we are aware of, but it would be very interesting to conceive of one. Perhaps you can recommend one? Y’know, Scientology makes that same claim of universal compatibility to new recruits. Interesting claim to make, seeing as how most religions aren’t even compatible with each other. ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2015, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-is-a-bug-not-a-feature/735236/28 "2015-10-20T19:47:08Z")
> [@Stoneburg](#): > > You could just watch the process of the decision unfolding from a very relaxed state and see the interaction of thoughts, feelings and emotions working themselves out. That way you get to see how the decision to make the sandwich is made, then when you start eating the sandwich you switch to first person perspective and enjoy the hell out of it. > > Or you can just flip a coin and pretend it was random, if you want to feel like you are being dominated or oppressed by an outside force. Just sit quietly and stare at the chicken. Every time you think about eating the chicken allow the thought to pass. Keep staring until you reach access consciousness. Then keep staring. Closely examine the feeling of wanting to eat the chicken, see the impermanence of the feeling of hunger, and try to locate the person who hungers. Eventually you will find the distinction between yourself and the chicken fades away. At that point you cannot see yourself as a separate actor acting upon the chicken when the chicken eating happens spontaneously. The chicken might be a bit smelly by then. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2015, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-is-a-bug-not-a-feature/735236/29 "2015-10-20T20:04:39Z")
> [@Stoneburg](#): > > Not that we are aware of, but it would be very interesting to conceive of one. Perhaps you can recommend one? _We_? I thought we were talking about some personal religio/philosophy that popped into your own head? What is the name of your group, and who is included in it? ---
**Author:** ![Flyer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/flyer/32/7298_2.png) [@Flyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyer)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2015, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-is-a-bug-not-a-feature/735236/30 "2015-10-20T20:59:46Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Interesting claim. Are there any belief systems your religio/philosophical system _isn’t_ compatible with? Christianity, for one. I suspect Islam, too. The OP’s system is largely bog-standard New Age beliefs, with pseudo-scientific wrappings added. See below. > [@Stoneburg](#): > > There is no escape from the Godhead, you are already IT. ---
**Author:** ![Stoneburg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Stoneburg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoneburg)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2015, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-is-a-bug-not-a-feature/735236/31 "2015-10-20T21:04:51Z")
> [@MrQwertyasd](#): > > Just sit quietly and stare at the chicken. Every time you think about eating the chicken allow the thought to pass. Keep staring until you reach access consciousness. Then keep staring. Closely examine the feeling of wanting to eat the chicken, see the impermanence of the feeling of hunger, and try to locate the person who hungers. Eventually you will find the distinction between yourself and the chicken fades away. At that point you cannot see yourself as a separate actor acting upon the chicken when the chicken eating happens spontaneously. > > The chicken might be a bit smelly by then. Thank you, beloved, hope you are doing well. Very nice analogy by the way. Namaste. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2015, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-is-a-bug-not-a-feature/735236/32 "2015-10-20T21:13:37Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > Christianity, for one. I suspect Islam, too. The OP’s system is largely bog-standard New Age beliefs, with pseudo-scientific wrappings added. See below. I suspect the “compatibility” is based on a lack of in-depth knowledge of any system but his own. ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2015, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-is-a-bug-not-a-feature/735236/33 "2015-10-20T21:18:05Z")
I thought Free Willy was a whale, not a bug. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2015, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-is-a-bug-not-a-feature/735236/34 "2015-10-20T21:25:39Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I just want to know if I should have tuna or chicken for dinner tonight. Both sound appealing. How does this help me? Zen meditation in the Buddha-way will eventually lead to a state of enlightenment, or _satori_, in which the dualism of chicken and tuna is negated. One comes to realize the epistemological essence of your dilemma need not be framed dualistically, for you become aware of a universal truth: it is not for nothing that albacore tuna is called “the chicken of the sea”. This revelation creates a state of oneness, or _samdhic_, that renders it unnecessary to make a choice. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2015, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-is-a-bug-not-a-feature/735236/35 "2015-10-20T21:27:33Z")
…and the cosmic realization that it all tastes like chicken, more or less. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2015, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-is-a-bug-not-a-feature/735236/36 "2015-10-20T21:41:09Z")
I believe the OP is the same person who self-medicates with LSD and other powerful hallucinogenics. Perhaps this is irrelevant here, perhaps not. ---
**Author:** ![Stoneburg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Stoneburg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoneburg)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2015, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-is-a-bug-not-a-feature/735236/37 "2015-10-20T22:01:21Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Y’know, Scientology makes that same claim of universal compatibility to new recruits. Interesting claim to make, seeing as how most religions aren’t even compatible with each other. I’m not updated on the teachings of Scientology, but my impression is that it is a Blue level sect that basically has access to some more advanced psycho/spiritual methods that can (somewhat) alter peoples state of consciousness etc. But yes, on a superficial level there are definitely some overlaps. All religions are essentially blue level, since they are pre-rational, what we are looking for here is to create a meme that is healthy. Our version of a religious meme would try to improve on the lower levels (give the “barbarians” some good rules to follow) and at the same time focus on developing the cognitive toolkit as fast as possible so that the person can move to a higher (Orange) level that allows for rational thought. The US right now is very interesting because it has such a diverse level of ego developments in its administrative area. Basically the full spectrum is represented from Red to Green, with Blue and Orange being the dominant levels. Seen from this perspective the US is now attempting to move up to level Green by electing Bernie Sanders (social democracy is a Green invention), having been traditionally been run by a mix of Blue (Religious conservatives) and Orange (Rationalist capitalists). ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2015, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-is-a-bug-not-a-feature/735236/38 "2015-10-20T23:41:07Z")
> [@Stoneburg](#): > > Not that we are aware of, but it would be very interesting to conceive of one. Perhaps you can recommend one? Science? Rational thought? For instance, starting with sentence one: > [@Stoneburg](#): > > The Game of Life is about moving up different ego developmental levels to achieve unity with Ultimate Reality (some call this Spirit or Godhead). Please cite one piece of objective evidence suggesting that this is true. ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2015, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-is-a-bug-not-a-feature/735236/39 "2015-10-20T23:59:41Z")
> [@Stoneburg](#): > > I’m not updated on the teachings of Scientology, but my impression is that it is a Blue level sect that basically has access to some more advanced psycho/spiritual methods that can (somewhat) alter peoples state of consciousness etc. But yes, on a superficial level there are definitely some overlaps. > > All religions are essentially blue level, since they are pre-rational, what we are looking for here is to create a meme that is healthy. Our version of a religious meme would try to improve on the lower levels (give the “barbarians” some good rules to follow) and at the same time focus on developing the cognitive toolkit as fast as possible so that the person can move to a higher (Orange) level that allows for rational thought. > > The US right now is very interesting because it has such a diverse level of ego developments in its administrative area. Basically the full spectrum is represented from Red to Green, with Blue and Orange being the dominant levels. Seen from this perspective the US is now attempting to move up to level Green by electing Bernie Sanders (social democracy is a Green invention), having been traditionally been run by a mix of Blue (Religious conservatives) and Orange (Rationalist capitalists). Yes religions are Purple and Blue with occasional outbreaks of Yellow and Turquoise, which the Purples and Blues immediately try to kill, and the Oranges just badmouth, muttering about hallucinations and drugs, and sticking their chin out all smug. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2015, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-is-a-bug-not-a-feature/735236/40 "2015-10-21T00:08:25Z")
…As opposed to the people proselytzing their religion, which divides people into “levels” based on how closely one adheres to _their_ beliefs and _their_ values. Nothing smug about that, no sir. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-is-a-bug-not-a-feature/735236.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-is-a-bug-not-a-feature/735236.md?page=3)