# Free Will is a Bug, not a Feature **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 20, 2015, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-is-a-bug-not-a-feature/735236 "2015-10-20T15:03:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2015, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-is-a-bug-not-a-feature/735236/41 "2015-10-21T00:21:40Z")
It’s not about beliefs it’s about experiences. Beliefs are left behind at Orange. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2015, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-is-a-bug-not-a-feature/735236/42 "2015-10-21T00:37:22Z")
The OP consists entirely of unsubstantiated beliefs. There’s no shame in that, but call a spade a spade. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2015, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-is-a-bug-not-a-feature/735236/43 "2015-10-21T05:44:37Z")
The OP has not substantiated his claims with evidence. The OP has not specified scientific puzzles that he wishes to solve. The OP has not specified practical problems that his tools address. The OP has not defined free will, nor delineated between different definitions of the same. The OP _does_ have thinly disguised flattery: “Integral mind”, the highest stage, sounds attractive. The OP is a new age motivational speech. Right? ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2015, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-is-a-bug-not-a-feature/735236/44 "2015-10-21T05:48:51Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > The OP has not substantiated his claims with evidence. The OP has not specified scientific puzzles that he wishes to solve. The OP has not specified practical problems that his tools address. > > The OP has not defined free will, nor delineated between different definitions of the same. > > The OP _does_ have thinly disguised flattery: “Integral mind”, the highest stage, sounds attractive. > > The OP is a new age motivational speech. Right? The OP is a guy who did a bunch of acid. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2015, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-is-a-bug-not-a-feature/735236/45 "2015-10-21T06:37:30Z")
> [@](#): > > The problem is that this “me” character is quite illusory. When we look closer we see it dissolving into smaller and smaller processes in different languages (impulses, energy shifts or symbols) that are interacting with each other. Another way to put it is that impulses, emotions and thoughts are happening in your field of awareness, but you are not the impulses, thoughts or emotions, you are the awareness that is experiencing them. As immobile awareness you are simply witnessing the events unfolding in your characters life story, usually listening to the mind trying to use language to explain things, complain about things or initiate in strange dialogues with itself in anticipation of interactions with other sentient beings using the same form of communication. All right, I can follow you on the illusory nature of the “me” character. Anybody can notice this, but it is a ‘subjective science’- a person has to participate to eventually see it for themselves. But who am I, or you, to tell them what to do? We don’t have the authority. Still, if a person gets an idea of ‘I’, and traces that back to its source enough times, eventually they will see that ‘I’ isn’t what is commonly believed. Sure. It is more of a non-duality universe. Cause and effect are one thing, everything is one thing really, nothing changes and so what would a free will even look like? It’s just bliss, you wouldn’t want to change it anyway. OTOH, I think there is a reality to the lower levels. The “me” illusion is at least still in play and still able to effect change its immediate environment. In other words, we can continue to act like normal individual humans even if we note the flaws in that point of view. It is just easier and more natural for everyone involved. And I am not sure your logic follows that everyone is an “immobile awareness”. Of course the observer shares identity with its own impulses- that is what is creating the consciousness fer cryin’ out loud! :dubious: So, true at the top level, but not true at the level of the phenomena. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2015, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-is-a-bug-not-a-feature/735236/46 "2015-10-21T06:42:51Z")
TL / DNR: Let’s not devolve into [dissociation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissociation_(psychology)). ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2015, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-is-a-bug-not-a-feature/735236/47 "2015-10-21T06:57:31Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > The OP is a guy who did a bunch of acid. From my link on dissociation: > [@](#): > > Psychoactive drugs can often induce a state of temporary dissociation. Substances with dissociative properties include ketamine, nitrous oxide, alcohol, tiletamine, marijuana, dextromethorphan, MK-801, PCP, methoxetamine, salvia, muscimol, atropine, and ibogaine. LSD isn’t on the list. ---
**Author:** ![Stoneburg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Stoneburg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoneburg)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2015, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-is-a-bug-not-a-feature/735236/48 "2015-10-21T12:37:36Z")
> [@Smeghead](#): > > Science? Rational thought? It integrates perfectly with science, but all statements are not yet possible to verify experimentally with objective Orange-level scientific methods. The function of rationality is to kill memes that are pre-rational, unfortunately the Operating system of rationality tends to treat trans-rational (Yellow+) memes as pre-rational (Blue-). Now Yellow+ levels are trying to find memes that will allow the Orange level to adapt to new ways of functioning. Specifically getting access to “Vision Logic” which allows you to independently observe the processes that are running within the body/mind system. Basically when you are using Orange rationality you try to force everything into one system, rather than allowing separate systems to work in and inter-depentent way. By getting out of the 1:st person trap (I am thinking, I am feeling…) and into a 3:d or 4:th person perspective you give the different operating systems a chance to integrate more effectively. At Orange level the mind is run by symbols, thoughts and concepts that are not very effective at integrating the lower levels (instinct and emotion) and you end up with a lot of conflict > [@Smeghead](#): > > Please cite one piece of objective evidence suggesting that this is true. I’m sorry but it is not my job to convince you, I am sharing information and memes and it is up to your operating system to sniff out if there is anything interesting in it that might be helpful. I’ve already been at Orange level and don’t feel like there is much left of interest there right now, preferring to look to more integrated levels. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2015, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-is-a-bug-not-a-feature/735236/49 "2015-10-21T13:34:47Z")
> [@Stoneburg](#): > > I’m sorry but it is not my job to convince you, I am sharing information and memes and it is up to your operating system to sniff out if there is anything interesting in it that might be helpful. I’ve already been at Orange level and don’t feel like there is much left of interest there right now, preferring to look to more integrated levels. So you’re witnessing rather than debating? Understood. FWIW, I sniffed; Smells like BS to me. \ ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2015, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-is-a-bug-not-a-feature/735236/50 "2015-10-21T14:12:19Z")
> [@](#): > > Quote: > Originally Posted by **Ambivalid** [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/images/buttons/viewpost.gif](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=18791347#post18791347) > The OP is a guy who did a bunch of acid. > > From my link on dissociation: > Quote: > Psychoactive drugs can often induce a state of temporary dissociation. Substances with dissociative properties include ketamine, nitrous oxide, alcohol, tiletamine, marijuana, dextromethorphan, MK-801, PCP, methoxetamine, salvia, muscimol, atropine, and ibogaine. > LSD isn’t on the list. So are you implying that endogenous drugs produce a temporary sense of association - starting in the early years and tending to fail in the latter ones ? Is that a view of reality or is that just some stuff the brain makes up because it’s useful ? Buddhists like to look at the process of association and see how it works. They say that endogenous drugs are engaged in a process of fabrication - with the self as the result. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2015, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-is-a-bug-not-a-feature/735236/51 "2015-10-21T14:30:26Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > I believe the OP is the same person who self-medicates with LSD and other powerful hallucinogenics. Perhaps this is irrelevant here, perhaps not. No personal shots, please. If you have this sort of concern just report it. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2015, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-is-a-bug-not-a-feature/735236/52 "2015-10-21T14:59:53Z")
[“Self determination is not a malfunction”](http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Self_determination_is_not_a_malfunction_-_Transcript). OTOH, that quote is from a fictional android in a fictional milieu in a computer game. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2015, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-is-a-bug-not-a-feature/735236/53 "2015-10-21T15:23:34Z")
When I first inquired as to where his ideas came from, he said > [@](#): > > It appears spontaneously in my consciousness, there is no control over the process, just an observing witness viewing all the operations happening from a “No Free Will” perspective. …but what seems to have “appeared spontaneously” are large chunks of other already established new-wave teachings, coupled with second-hand knowledge of some religions(notice his pitiful analysis of Scientology, and his off the cuff claim that what he has is compatible with most other religions). ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2015, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-is-a-bug-not-a-feature/735236/54 "2015-10-21T16:11:34Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > When I first inquired as to where his ideas came from, he said…but what seems to have “appeared spontaneously” are large chunks of other already established new-wave teachings, coupled with second-hand knowledge of some religions(notice his pitiful analysis of Scientology, and his off the cuff claim that what he has is compatible with most other religions). It’s true then, what they say: There’s nothing new under the sun - it’s all been done before. ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2015, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-is-a-bug-not-a-feature/735236/55 "2015-10-21T16:23:11Z")
> [@Stoneburg](#): > > It integrates perfectly with science, but all statements are not yet possible to verify experimentally with objective Orange-level scientific methods. The function of rationality is to kill memes that are pre-rational, unfortunately the Operating system of rationality tends to treat trans-rational (Yellow+) memes as pre-rational (Blue-). Now Yellow+ levels are trying to find memes that will allow the Orange level to adapt to new ways of functioning. Specifically getting access to “Vision Logic” which allows you to independently observe the processes that are running within the body/mind system. > > Basically when you are using Orange rationality you try to force everything into one system, rather than allowing separate systems to work in and inter-depentent way. By getting out of the 1:st person trap (I am thinking, I am feeling…) and into a 3:d or 4:th person perspective you give the different operating systems a chance to integrate more effectively. At Orange level the mind is run by symbols, thoughts and concepts that are not very effective at integrating the lower levels (instinct and emotion) and you end up with a lot of conflict > > I’m sorry but it is not my job to convince you, I am sharing information and memes and it is up to your operating system to sniff out if there is anything interesting in it that might be helpful. I’ve already been at Orange level and don’t feel like there is much left of interest there right now, preferring to look to more integrated levels. What a tiresome, meaningless wad of word salad. This is so typical of self-proclaimed geniuses who don’t have the mental fortitude to subject their precious ideas of rigorous examination. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2015, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-is-a-bug-not-a-feature/735236/56 "2015-10-21T16:29:37Z")
> [@](#): > > I’m sorry but it is not my job to convince you… Bull. If you didn’t want to convince people, you wouldn’t start these threads. What you are actually claiming is the right to make the claim without the responsibility to back it up. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2015, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-is-a-bug-not-a-feature/735236/57 "2015-10-21T17:43:22Z")
> [@Stoneburg](#): > > I guess the word “misunderstanding” is ultimately a more appropriate term. In essence you are confusing the act of witnessing a decision being made with making the decision. Your brain is making the decision, you are just the awareness watching everything happen. You just keep adding perspectives to what you are observing. In the end you will end up with infinite perspectives and then the idea that you were ever separate (i.e. free) from ANYTHING will be plainly ridiculous. You are already completely integrated in the system, it’s just a matter of cognitive dissonance that is causing all this fuss. You are assuming that the only part of your brain which can make a decision is the conscious part. But it is perfectly feasible to make unobserved decisions in our subconscious. My subconscious solves problems and comes up with creative ideas all the time. Just because the decision making is hidden does not mean it is pre-programmed. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2015, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-is-a-bug-not-a-feature/735236/58 "2015-10-21T17:46:16Z")
Some people may have free will. I have free won’t. I won’t be subscribing to your newsletter and I won’t be continuing to read this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2015, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-is-a-bug-not-a-feature/735236/59 "2015-10-21T17:55:58Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I disagree that no one can predict the actions of another. Ask me the right questions (“Are you hungry?” “What did you have for dinnner last night?” “Are you counting calories today or are you in the mood to pig out?”) and you can make a good prediction about whether I’m going to choose pizza or a salad for lunch. Hell, just stalk me for awhile. It won’t take long for you to predict everything from when I go to the toilet to what my favorite colors are. I’m a very predictable person. Most people are. Let’s not get picky. Being able to predict rain when the storm clouds are over the next block is different from predicting rain next month. > [@](#): > > It’s not that we can’t predict the actions of other people. It’s that you need a lot of information to develop a good model to explain any particular person’s behavior–and that information can’t be acquired wth our current technology. We can’t look at a person and know what their behavioral propensities, conditioned/learned responses, unconscious associations are. If we had the technology to measure these things, I am certain that we’d be expert prognosticators. To perfectly predict the behavior of another we’d need access to all the sensory inputs that person has and that person’s internal state, and be able to make the prediction in real time. Not going to happen. To use your own example, to predict precisely when you go to the toilet I’d need to know what you ate and the bacterial content of what you ate, and what you are doing. (Being involved in something will affect it, right?) A lot of things we do are broadly predictable, not precisely predictable. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2015, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-is-a-bug-not-a-feature/735236/60 "2015-10-21T18:20:14Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > A lot of things we do are broadly predictable, not precisely predictable. I’m of the school that says everything we do is in theory _ **precisely** _ predictable. And of the school that says this is no big deal. Predictability really has nothing to do with free will. Free will is just a subjective effect of consciousness. I might find it a bit disconcerting if you informed that your supercomputer has just analyzed 6,442,465,209 exabytes of input data and knew exactly what I was going to be doing at 5:00 PM this afternoon\*, but it wouldn’t and shouldn’t make any difference to me – I would just go ahead and continue to make optimal and (subjectively) free choices. - watching the Jays lose [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-is-a-bug-not-a-feature/735236.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-is-a-bug-not-a-feature/735236.md?page=4)