# Free Will versus Determinism **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 6, 2025, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-versus-determinism/1019278 "2025-06-06T20:19:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2025, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-versus-determinism/1019278/21 "2025-06-07T15:37:17Z")
Free will is an illusion. It’s very strong with us humans, to the point that many believe it to be factual. And yet, when someone displays their free will by doing something that is perceived as totally random, people who know the person will say something like: “I don’t know what got into Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit. Not acting like themself.” > [@Babale](#): > > People make decisions, and they should face consequences for those decisions - that’s part of how they are able to make decisions, by looking at the consequences, and weighing their options. Actually, most people don’t make informed decisions, they use their “free will” and make a choice, then come up with a rationalization to justify that decision. With this out of the way, I think that the juxtaposition isn’t about determinism v. free will. I didn’t decide to make a cup of coffee because how particles congregated just after the big bang. That would make us all automatons. There’s a great book by Ian Stewart and Jack Cohen called [Figmenst of Reality: The Evolution of the Curious Mind](https://www.amazon.com/Figments-Reality-Evolution-Curious-Mind-ebook/dp/B001FSKBLE/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1RSO2CKN8JP6N&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.TBccUhB7RXYhGi9AILooPRgV-1cnpxHYdcKyC33Usf8V1zQ3mqN1lwYRihQWXTvZ_8mada5uxrfn7T5q35reO-5fW6uBxKPocVSFZxhL40VR0-iAaI7THWmNEuUXwS3fyGl7Af_wZPNjAiDaw6fsv2bPoJyPmnW0LNGos27Xd2wnAbwVbqjzylSVEm4ixfC3ywNCqwYRqkD33ED9egCL9iK-Z9Vvhdx_NMSGrv6yNAg.CRO9jjxBCp6rCD9alKwkwFBQVyrGzxtM_BQp7gqHYIE&dib_tag=se&keywords=figment+of+reality&qid=1749310302&sprefix=figment+of+reality%2Caps%2C166&sr=8-1). Their conclusion: Free will is what it feels like to have a mind. BTW, Chapter 9 is titled: We Wanted to Have a Chapter on Free Will, but We Decided not to, so Here It Is ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2025, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-versus-determinism/1019278/22 "2025-06-07T15:37:24Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Freedom from an oppressive regime that places restrictions on your ability to do what you want to do has absolutely nothing to do with the concepts of free will or determinism. I don’t see why not, it can be argued that imprisonment does limit a prisoner’s ability to freely choose their actions. The prison environment imposes significant restrictions on movement, communication, and access to resources. The point here is that, I don’t think we should call it nonsense when the imprisoned (and specially the innocent ones) think that their free will is severely restricted. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2025, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-versus-determinism/1019278/23 "2025-06-07T15:40:12Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > I don’t see why not, it can be argued that imprisonment does limit a prisoner’s ability to freely choose their actions. Of course it does, that’s like the definition of imprisonment. What does that have to do with the philosophical concept of _free will_? ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2025, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-versus-determinism/1019278/24 "2025-06-07T15:40:56Z")
> [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > Yes, people making confident assertions without even engaging with the arguments. More than that: people operating under very different understandings of what the terms “free will” and “determinism” mean. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2025, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-versus-determinism/1019278/25 "2025-06-07T15:43:55Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Do prisoners and human rights activists in dictatorships who think that they have very, very limited freedom, think complete nonsense when they realize that their free will is indeed restricted in real life? “Freedom” isn’t “free will”. They aren’t even related. In fact by having such opinions they are demonstrating determinism, since those opinions are shaped by the circumstances they are in, not by magical free will. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2025, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-versus-determinism/1019278/26 "2025-06-07T15:44:07Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Of course it does, that’s like the definition of imprisonment. > > What does that have to do with the philosophical concept of _free will_? That many philosophers just conveniently ignore it, I think free will is more like an emergent property of humans, One should look at the levels of it. Not to do this illogically like what I notice in many of these discussions, like it is an on or off thing, I think it has levels and other items that fits more with one observes in real life. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2025, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-versus-determinism/1019278/27 "2025-06-07T15:45:25Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > That many philosophers just conveniently ignore it, Many philosophers conveniently ignore _what_? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2025, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-versus-determinism/1019278/28 "2025-06-07T15:47:26Z")
“Yes, freedom and free will are closely related”. In philosophy, free will is often defined as the ability to make choices independently of external influences, and this ability is closely connected to the concept of freedom. Freedom of action, in particular, relies on the freedom of will, as the ability to act freely requires the ability to choose to act. [Free Will (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)](https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/freewill/#:~:text=The%20first%20was%20that%20free%20will%20has,do%20otherwise%20and%20the%20power%20of%20self%2Ddetermination.&text=Given%20this%20connection%2C%20we%20can%20determine%20whether,takes%20to%20be%20a%20morally%20responsible%20agent). That goes for @Der_Trihs too. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2025, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-versus-determinism/1019278/29 "2025-06-07T15:51:53Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Many philosophers conveniently ignore _what_? My point here is that, just as there are no clear definitions about what is intelligence in humans (Or that there are many types of intelligence), I do think that there are levels (or different types!) of free will among humans. If one thinks a bit about that, it makes what one sees in the world to make more sense that thinking that it is just an on or off switch. ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2025, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-versus-determinism/1019278/30 "2025-06-07T15:53:14Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > The “Zeno machine” you described couldn’t produce randomness, it’s deterministic. It can decide the halting problem of ordinary computers, meaning it can compute [omega numbers](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaitin%27s_constant?wprov=sfla1), which are algorithmically random. Also, like Thompson’s lamp, its final state is not determined by its initial state, meaning that whatever state it ends up in is genuinely new information. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > And nothing can account for free will because the concept is both nonsensical and doesn’t resemble reality at all. The only problem with the notion is the regress Strawson identifies, which a Zeno machine could simply traverse. And the same problem also exists with the notion of randomness and with the creation of the universe (‘first mover’-type problems), so you need to believe it’s solvable anyway. The issue is just that theoretical models fail to account for the creation of information, but that’s just a limitation of modeling, and believing it to be a limitation on the world is just projection. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2025, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-versus-determinism/1019278/31 "2025-06-07T16:37:52Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > “Yes, freedom and free will are closely related”. In philosophy, free will is often defined as the ability to make choices independently of external influences, and this ability is closely connected to the concept of freedom. Freedom of action, in particular, relies on the freedom of will, as the ability to act freely requires the ability to choose to act. A state machine goes to a next state depending on its inputs and its internal states. It might choose different next states with the same inputs if its internal states are different. Free will? I’d hardly think so. Deterministic? But the current set of internal states might come from a set of truly random inputs. A test for free will versus determinism would require seeing if the same set of inputs under the same internal state conditions could yield different results. I don’t think this is possible. Another test would be to see if you predict the action of an entity based on inputs and internal states. So free will/determinism is unfalsifiable, and I say the hell with it. We can never predict the actions of ourselves or others, so even if they are deterministic they might as well not be. As for the other side, forget about prison cells. I think everyone here is born or has learned the inability to kill innocent babies. That’s internal. So we don’t have perfect free will, even if it appears we do in most aspects of our lives. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2025, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-versus-determinism/1019278/32 "2025-06-07T16:48:50Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > But people making choices on the basis of their past doesn’t make them “puppets”, it means they have _actual reasons_ for what they think and do instead of pulling it all out of some magical singularity in their head. It’s the opposite of dehumanizing and meaningless. With this perfect definition of free will, I think the thread is over. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2025, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-versus-determinism/1019278/33 "2025-06-07T16:52:53Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > In philosophy, free will is often defined as the ability to make choices independently of external influences, and this ability is closely connected to the concept of freedom. Freedom of action, in particular, relies on the freedom of will, as the ability to act freely requires the ability to choose to act. If they make choices, they are not exercising free will; choices are deterministic. If they are acting independently of external influences then they are acting blindly, not out of “free will”. And freedom of action requires cause and effect - determinism - to exist. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2025, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-versus-determinism/1019278/34 "2025-06-07T20:00:59Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > But I agree with what I think your point is: that if you espouse determinism, you have to be consistent with it. If it means you can’t hold people responsible for their actions, then it also means that you can’t hold people responsible for holding people responsible for their actions. If you espouse determinism, you can’t do anything other than whatever it is you do do. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2025, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-versus-determinism/1019278/35 "2025-06-07T20:27:46Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > If they make choices, they are not exercising free will; choices are deterministic. If they are acting independently of external influences then they are acting blindly, not out of “free will”. And freedom of action requires cause and effect - determinism - to exist. So prisoners have the same chances for that? Are choices in Prison the same as what a prisoner actually wants? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2025, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-versus-determinism/1019278/36 "2025-06-07T20:42:10Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > A test for free will versus determinism would require seeing if the same set of inputs under the same internal state conditions could yield different results. I don’t think this is possible. Another test would be to see if you predict the action of an entity based on inputs and internal states. So free will/determinism is unfalsifiable, and I say the hell with it. Well, since this is IMHO: [Department of Justice Archive | Prison Reform: Reducing Recidivism by Strengthening the Federal Bureau of Prisons](https://www.justice.gov/archives/prison-reform#:~:text=Research%20shows%20that%20inmates%20who%20participate%20in,five%20dollars%20on%20the%20costs%20of%20re%2Dincarceration.&text=Inmate%20programming%20also%20makes%20prisons%20safer%20because,less%20likely%20to%20engage%20in%20institutional%20misconduct). > Research consistently shows that inmates who participate in education programs have a significantly lower likelihood of returning to prison. For example, studies indicate a 43% reduction in odds of recidivism for those who participate in correctional education. IMHO, education is one factor that allows one to have a bit more of a free will, of course one can say that ignorance is more costly and I would say here that ignorance is actually a detrimental to have _some_ free will. But I digress a bit, the important point here is that I think that Prisons can help find the limitations of what I think is an emergent human property. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2025, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-versus-determinism/1019278/37 "2025-06-07T21:20:37Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > IMHO, education is one factor that allows one to have a bit more of a free will, I don’t understand how you can make that conclusion based on what you quoted. If anything, it shows that we can predictably manipulate the choices people make by providing specific contexts/inputs into their decision making. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2025, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-versus-determinism/1019278/38 "2025-06-07T21:22:56Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > So prisoners have the same chances for that? Are choices in Prison the same as what a prisoner actually wants? Our choices are always constrained. When we talk about taking away freedoms or whatever, it’s a shorthand for (much) more severely constraining the options available, or making physical threats. But magic free will exists to the extent it ever exists (never, in my opinion) because “could have chosen differently”. > [@Mangetout](#): > > If you espouse determinism, you can’t do anything other than whatever it is you do do. I’d phrase it more as: you won’t do what you don’t choose to do. If I have a choice between coffee and tea, and I choose coffee because reason A is most important to me then, if we could reverse time and erase my memories, then reason A is still most important to me and I choose coffee again. How could anything other than this happen and make sense? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2025, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-versus-determinism/1019278/39 "2025-06-07T21:49:59Z")
That was the point, directed to **Voyager** ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2025, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-versus-determinism/1019278/40 "2025-06-07T21:52:27Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Our choices are always constrained. Again, the point of this (not much of a thought experiment as it happens in real life) is that there are **more** constrains in Prison. Point being that, it is not correct IMHO to call it magic. Oh, BTW, I do agree that a lot of this that is is deterministic, but IMHO, not completely. There is, once again, what I think: that as an emergent property, it is more complicated than just to say that it is “Magic”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-versus-determinism/1019278.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-versus-determinism/1019278.md?page=3)