# Free Will with a Little Bit of Science! (TM)(C)(R) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 30, 2021, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-with-a-little-bit-of-science-tm-c-r/931877 "2021-01-30T17:53:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2021, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-with-a-little-bit-of-science-tm-c-r/931877/241 "2021-02-17T21:45:31Z")
I’m not seeing the contradiction. 😕 > [@Babale](#): > > Eta: not to mention the fact that it is entirely unfalsifable. I [conceded](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/931877/143) that scenario 1 from the OP would in fact invalidate my philosophy. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2021, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-with-a-little-bit-of-science-tm-c-r/931877/242 "2021-02-17T21:52:26Z")
Okay, now I see it. You aren’t saying your novel square root algorithm is indeterministic and non-random (it is clearly a deterministic algorithm), you are saying the mental process you used to make the algorithm is indeterministic and non-random; a “generalization”. Right? ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2021, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-with-a-little-bit-of-science-tm-c-r/931877/243 "2021-02-17T21:55:13Z")
With the split brain example - when you ask the subject why their left hand is pointing at a chicken, and they say it is because they were hungry, the consciousness-as-interpreter model has a very simple explanation: the subject saw the chicken, interpreted the information in the right side of their brain, and their left hand and right brain communicated easily and pointed at the picture of a chicken. The speech processing left brain, unable to explain why the left hand pointed at a picture of a chicken but unwilling to abandon the “free willed” model of consciousness it creates internally, invents an explanation, nonsensical or incorrect as it may be. Is the “soul” able to see the chicken? If so, why doesn’t it know why it was pointing at the picture of a chicken? If not, why? ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2021, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-with-a-little-bit-of-science-tm-c-r/931877/244 "2021-02-17T21:56:04Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > you are saying the mental process you used to make the algorithm is indeterministic and non-random; a “generalization Yep, that’s it. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2021, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-with-a-little-bit-of-science-tm-c-r/931877/245 "2021-02-17T22:04:50Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > What architecture would function that way? Not a numerical simulation but a a relational architecture. Pardon me for the delay in replying; I’m officially at work trying to correct some sql that accesses a relational database. Computers can, and do, quite a lot more than you might think. The vast majority of processes you can imagine can be described in steps. If you can describe it in steps, those steps can be encoded as instructions. Note that doing all this can be very, very complicated and I certainly don’t hold it against a person if they are unable to imagine how it all works. However most people have played a video game in their lifetimes, one with colors and action and reactive environment and enemies with rudimentary AI - there’s little excuse for thinking that computers can _only_ deal with plain numbers. > [@Max\_S](#): > > I [conceded](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/931877/143) that scenario 1 from the OP would in fact invalidate my philosophy. Yes, the ‘god in the gaps’ argument, as you referred to it. (Which is term usually used to highlight the poor quality of the argument; odd that you picked it.) The thing about this ‘god in the gaps’ thing is that the gaps are supposed to represent places where this soul can exert influence. Which is all well and good until you consider the extent of things that we know _aren’t_ in the gaps: memory, personality, emotions, consciousness. (We know this because you can mess with all this with drugs and physical damage - and no the “looking through dirty glasses” argument doesn’t explain how you can experience a change in _mood_ thanks to the direct effect of chemicals.) Honestly, even if I was going to give the greatest possible credence to the ‘soul’ theory, the ‘god in the gaps’ argument paints the picture less as “the soul is puppeting the body” and more as “the soul occasionally reaches in and messes with the fully self-contained process that we are personally experiencing and which is housed in the body”. Which, if we reach alllll the way back to what the “free will” debate was when the possibility of supernatural forces messing with our behavior was seriously considered, is the _opposite_ of free will. “God hardened Pharoahs heart” kind of business. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2021, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-with-a-little-bit-of-science-tm-c-r/931877/246 "2021-02-17T22:09:48Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > If so, why doesn’t it know why it was pointing at the picture of a chicken? I’m guessing the soul had nothing to do with the immediate decision to point at the chicken. This was my general read of the article, too. And I have some background of the consciousness-as-interpreter model with quick decisions that involve no cognition, like “quick, what is the first thing that comes to mind…” You can absolutely make subconscious decisions without invoking a soul. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2021, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-with-a-little-bit-of-science-tm-c-r/931877/247 "2021-02-17T22:14:17Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > the “looking through dirty glasses” argument doesn’t explain how you can experience a change in _mood_ thanks to the direct effect of chemicals. Drinking through a dirty straw can make you sick. > [@begbert2](#): > > “the soul is puppeting the body” and more as “the soul occasionally reaches in and messes with the fully self-contained process that we are personally experiencing and which is housed in the body” There’s certainly a balance there, and if it is shown that the majority of decisions we think of as deliberated turn out to be fully determined (or even highly predictable) by physics, I’ll back off. There’s no point in arguing for free will if it is not exercised to any significant degree. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2021, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-with-a-little-bit-of-science-tm-c-r/931877/248 "2021-02-17T22:15:40Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > I’m guessing the soul had nothing to do with the immediate decision to point at the chicken. This was my general read of the article, too. And I have some background of the consciousness-as-interpreter model with quick decisions that involve no cognition, like “quick, what is the first thing that comes to mind…” > > You can absolutely make subconscious decisions without invoking a soul. > > ~Max So is the soul making up the “I was hungry” excuse? If so, why is the soul lying to itself? If not, who/what is? ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2021, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-with-a-little-bit-of-science-tm-c-r/931877/249 "2021-02-17T22:15:57Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > there’s little excuse for thinking that computers can _only_ deal with plain numbers. I’m quite aware of that. I’ve been programming digital computers since 1957. Spent 3 years with analog computers before that. Recent work with numerical computer learning algorithms is impressive. but, no matter how good they get, numerical computers aren’t human. My question was, what might the brain architecture actually look like. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2021, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-with-a-little-bit-of-science-tm-c-r/931877/250 "2021-02-17T22:17:54Z")
I would say post hoc rationalization, like all thinking, is in the soul/mind’s domain. But if you were to construct some hypothetical where the subject is trained to say “I was hungry” as a knee-jerk response, pavlov-style, that might be done without involving the soul. Or it might be done with the soul. I think if you reinforce any stimulus-behavior enough it becomes a reflex. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2021, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-with-a-little-bit-of-science-tm-c-r/931877/251 "2021-02-17T22:18:54Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Drinking through a dirty straw can make you sick. Uh huh - because it’s a _physical interaction_ which _physically alters_ the part of you that’s getting sick. We can knock somebody clean out with drugs. A complete shutdown of consciousness, only to resume later with the intervening chunk of time not having been experienced. If the soul is a separate, external (eternal, indestructible) thing, then the most we could do would be to turn off the inputs to it - it would be treated to a period of black, not a time skip. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2021, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-with-a-little-bit-of-science-tm-c-r/931877/252 "2021-02-17T22:20:20Z")
Don’t you _feel_ sick sometimes? Why can’t your mind experience being stoned? ~Max ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2021, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-with-a-little-bit-of-science-tm-c-r/931877/253 "2021-02-17T22:21:01Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > My question was, what might the brain architecture actually look like. Well, I _was_ going submit this to the nobel prize committee, but… ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2021, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-with-a-little-bit-of-science-tm-c-r/931877/254 "2021-02-17T22:23:37Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Don’t you _feel_ sick sometimes? Why can’t your mind experience being stoned? Did you even read what I wrote? The words are right there. We’re talking about _forcing the consciousness to shut down via the application of chemicals_. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2021, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-with-a-little-bit-of-science-tm-c-r/931877/255 "2021-02-17T22:25:55Z")
First you mentioned mood changes, so I thought you meant something like a zombie state. Now I think you mean blackouts - real unconsciousness. I don’t see why blackouts are anything to get worked up about, after all people go to sleep every night. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2021, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-with-a-little-bit-of-science-tm-c-r/931877/256 "2021-02-17T22:27:20Z")
What is your soul doing while the body is asleep and dreaming? What is your soul doing while you are unconscious with no brain activity? ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2021, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-with-a-little-bit-of-science-tm-c-r/931877/257 "2021-02-17T22:29:32Z")
I’m serious. Since you are steeped in the field, haven’t you entertained conjecture on how the architecture might work? ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2021, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-with-a-little-bit-of-science-tm-c-r/931877/258 "2021-02-17T22:29:37Z")
Probably dreaming, in the second case, probably nothing. If you grant the existence of a mental substance, it is clear that physical actions have a causal effect on the mental. This extends to cutting off the mental connection; think severing of limbs, numbness, and paralysis. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2021, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-with-a-little-bit-of-science-tm-c-r/931877/259 "2021-02-17T22:31:09Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > If you grant the existence of a mental substance By this do you mean some kind of ethereal soulstuff from which our souls are formed, that interacts with matter only through thought/the brain? ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2021, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-with-a-little-bit-of-science-tm-c-r/931877/260 "2021-02-17T22:31:48Z")
No, sort of… substance is sort of like a philosophical term for “realm”. I just didn’t want to write “souls” again and again. ~Max [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-with-a-little-bit-of-science-tm-c-r/931877.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/free-will-with-a-little-bit-of-science-tm-c-r/931877.md?page=14)