# Freedom and Traditional Values: A Question for the Conservatives **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 27, 2004, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-and-traditional-values-a-question-for-the-conservatives/281810 "2004-12-27T19:12:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2004, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-and-traditional-values-a-question-for-the-conservatives/281810/21 "2004-12-28T19:05:59Z")
Starving Artist: > [@](#): > > On the contrary, most conservatives I know say they have no problem with gays either; they just think marriage, as they’ve always known and accepted it to be, should be between a man and a woman. And my point is that conservatives want the government to be the one to enforce this position. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2004, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-and-traditional-values-a-question-for-the-conservatives/281810/22 "2004-12-29T00:23:57Z")
Conservatives do not want less government, and they do not want less intrusive government. What they want is less _compassionate_ government. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2004, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-and-traditional-values-a-question-for-the-conservatives/281810/23 "2004-12-29T00:49:24Z")
> [@Beware of Doug](#): > > Conservatives do not want less government, and they do not want less intrusive government. What they want is less _compassionate_ government. Au contraire! They want less _foolhardy_ government. They want things like, oh, I don’t know…putting criminals in jail after at least their tenth or twelvth conviction; not stretching the founding fathers’ desire to ensure we not be ruled by a theocratic government into forbidding Christian imagery in public; strong, not weak-willed and ineffectual, foreign policy; not turning the country into a nanny-state where the government calls the shots in your life and dictates what you’re entitled to…you know, things like that. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2004, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-and-traditional-values-a-question-for-the-conservatives/281810/24 "2004-12-29T03:37:20Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > This is a most amusing post. First you appear to condemn a fairly innocuous stereotype by stating that gays do not have a “lifestyle,” then you engage in a much greater and more hateful stereotype yourself by lumping all conservatives into gay-hating would-be murderers. Take a deep breath, **SA** , and go back and look again. He specifically said _gay-hating_ conservatives, not all conservatives. > [@](#): > > I’m a conservative and I have absolutely no problem with gays whatsoever… We know you don’t, **Starving**. You’re one of the good ones. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2004, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-and-traditional-values-a-question-for-the-conservatives/281810/25 "2004-12-29T04:30:43Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Take a deep breath, **SA** , and go back and look again. He specifically said _gay-hating_ conservatives, not all conservatives. Well, I went back and read it again and it still looks to me like he meant conservatives in general, however I can see how I could be wrong. He did say “the” gay-hating conservatives…I interpreted this to mean conservatives as a group, but perhaps he meant to say “the” conservatives who are gay-haters. I don’t know if I’m phrasing this in such a way as to make the distinction clear, but I’ll allow I could be wrong. If so, and **spectrum** was not portraying conservatives in general as hating gays, I offer him my apologies. > [@Miller](#): > > We know you don’t, **Starving**. You’re one of the good ones. 😉 Thank you. You are as well, my friend. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2004, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-and-traditional-values-a-question-for-the-conservatives/281810/26 "2004-12-29T04:33:14Z")
Uh…a good person, that is. Don’t know if you’re a conservative or not, but no matter, you’re a good person and that’s what I meant to say. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2004, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-and-traditional-values-a-question-for-the-conservatives/281810/27 "2004-12-29T05:41:00Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > Au contraire! They want less _foolhardy_ government. They want things like, oh, I don’t know… …not making up bullshit excuses to invade other countries “pre-emptively,” and then not having any post-war planning to handle the difficulties of occupying a country full of hostile “insurgents”? Less foolhardy government? You can’t find an American Administration _more_ foolhardy than the current one. And the fact that you support these clowns does not reflect well on yourself, I’m afraid. “Who’s more foolish: the fool, or the fool who follows him?” ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2004, 8:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-and-traditional-values-a-question-for-the-conservatives/281810/28 "2004-12-29T08:35:05Z")
> [@Beware of Doug](#): > > Conservatives do not want less government, and they do not want less intrusive government. What they want is less _compassionate_ government. Money and guns. It all boils down to those two things. That’s freedom to them. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2004, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-and-traditional-values-a-question-for-the-conservatives/281810/29 "2004-12-29T12:50:08Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > Au contraire! They want less _foolhardy_ government. They (they meaning the Administration in power) do not. At least not in the realm of international relations. > [@](#): > > They want things like, oh, I don’t know… Take your time… > [@](#): > > […]not turning the country into a nanny-state where the government calls the shots in your life and dictates what you’re entitled to…you know, things like that. I’d say that’s the nut of it. Lots of conservatives, deep down in places they don’t talk about, would prefer a daddy state that diciates what you’re NOT entitled to. A distant disciplinarian deity-state dedicated to the high ideal of kicking ass. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2004, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-and-traditional-values-a-question-for-the-conservatives/281810/30 "2004-12-29T14:01:39Z")
This thread is turning out to be a great example of the old saying: “Conservatives think Liberals are bad at governing. Liberals think Conservatives are just pure evil.” I know we’re not ever going to agree. But, it would be nice if people could just wrap their minds around the concept that everybody for the most part wants what’s best for the country. Conservatives and Liberals both want the country to prosper. They just have different ideas about how best to do it. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2004, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-and-traditional-values-a-question-for-the-conservatives/281810/31 "2004-12-29T15:36:11Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > I’m a small gov’t conservative/libertarian type. I usually vote republican. > > The OP has a good point in that many republican positions (pro-life, most notably) are in direct violation of the general conservative principal of smaller less intrusive government. However, overall the repulican party is still the party of small government and less interference, especially when compared to the democrats. > > The democrats on the other hand, have moved further and further to the left. Issues involving frightening amounts of government control and interference with people are at the spotlight of the party. The creation of Homeland Security was the biggest increase in government in the past 60+ years. Conservatives _say_ they want smaller government, but I think they mean they want _more_ of **their kind** of government–ie, no human services, more guns. > [@](#): > > And I think many conservatives would agree ) that it’s not the role of government to _enforce_ the traditional values as much as it is the duty of government to not _interfere_ with them. And which set of “traditional” values are we talking about? Nuclear families? SAHM families? extended? Blended? Which group of people represents this to conservatives? [QUOTE} Many believe that allowing gay marriage erodes traditional marriage. Welfare encourages single women (especially blacks) to have children and this results in less families that can support themselves. Etc.[/QUOTE] Oh, so it’s especially black women who are single moms? I would like to see some of your data on this assumption. To me, that’s a very broad brush. ---
**Author:** ![Wrath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ee7513/32.png) [@Wrath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wrath)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2004, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-and-traditional-values-a-question-for-the-conservatives/281810/32 "2004-12-29T15:56:29Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > The creation of Homeland Security was the biggest increase in government in the past 60+ years. Conservatives _say_ they want smaller government, but I think they mean they want _more_ of **their kind** of government–ie, no human services, more guns. Well THAT’s a bit backwards. No human services = \ ***less** government, not more. More guns (assuming you mean in the hands of citizens) has nothing to do with government except perhaps to protect us FROM government. Most people, lib, conserv, Dem, Rep, recognize that government’s primary responsibility to its citizens is to keep them safe. That’s what Homeland Security is at its core. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2004, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-and-traditional-values-a-question-for-the-conservatives/281810/33 "2004-12-29T16:20:12Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > […]it would be nice if people could just wrap their minds around the concept that everybody for the most part wants what’s best for the country. Conservatives and Liberals both want the country to prosper. They just have different ideas about how best to do it. Conservatives want the _nation_ to prosper. Liberals want the _people_ to prosper. ---
**Author:** ![Wrath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ee7513/32.png) [@Wrath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wrath)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2004, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-and-traditional-values-a-question-for-the-conservatives/281810/34 "2004-12-29T16:45:01Z")
> [@Beware of Doug](#): > > Conservatives want the _nation_ to prosper. Liberals want the _people_ to prosper. Are you saying conservatives want the nation to prosper at the expense of the people? And that liberals want the people to at the expense of the nation? Nah. I’d say both want both to prosper, and have different ideas about how to do it. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2004, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-and-traditional-values-a-question-for-the-conservatives/281810/35 "2004-12-29T16:54:49Z")
> [@Wrath](#): > > Are you saying conservatives want the nation to prosper at the expense of the people? And that liberals want the people to at the expense of the nation? > > Nah. I’d say both want both to prosper, and have different ideas about how to do it. Nah, it’s so much easier to just consider those who don’t agree with you to be bad. Evil. Not good. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2004, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-and-traditional-values-a-question-for-the-conservatives/281810/36 "2004-12-29T16:59:46Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Anyway, on to the OP’s question. I would argue (and I think many conservatives would agree ) that it’s not the role of government to _enforce_ the traditional values as much as it is the duty of government to not _interfere_ with them. As long as their political leadership weasels on this point in order to court the votes of people who want the former, they must be treated as if they themselves want the former. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2004, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-and-traditional-values-a-question-for-the-conservatives/281810/37 "2004-12-29T17:04:47Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > Oh, so it’s especially black women who are single moms? I would like to see some of your data on this assumption. To me, that’s a very broad brush. Yes, single parent households are much more common with blacks. It’s surprising that somebody wouldn’t know this. But, don’t take my word for it. Bill Cosby and the National Center for Health Statistics agrees: > [@](#): > > Cosby is correct when he says that moral standards have declined drastically among many African-Americans. For example, in 1969, the out-of-wedlock birth rate for black Americans stood at 35 percent, according to the National Center for Health Statistics. In 2002, that rate was a shocking 68.2 percent, as opposed to 28.5 percent for white Americans. With single black women now heading 54.4 percent of all African-American households, the seeds of social chaos are deeply planted. [cite](http://www.informedvolusian.com/2004/07_21_04%20Missive/issue_14_Oreilly.htm) It’s because of failed liberal programs like houing projects and welfare that these people have become trapped in a cycle of dependancy and have had the traditional family eroded. As a result of the liberals trying to help them, they are now much worse off. I’d say the compassionate thing to do is to cut these failed programs. Remember: This is not because I’m evil. It’s because I have a different idea about how to solve these problems than you do. [I feel like I’m explaining this to a child. I really wish you people would get it. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Love](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Dr.Love](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Love)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2004, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-and-traditional-values-a-question-for-the-conservatives/281810/38 "2004-12-29T19:09:59Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > I would argue (and I think many conservatives would agree ) that it’s not the role of government to _enforce_ the traditional values as much as it is the duty of government to not _interfere_ with them. Many believe that allowing gay marriage erodes traditional marriage. Welfare encourages single women (especially blacks) to have children and this results in less families that can support themselves. Etc. Thanks for your post. I see the broad point you’re making, and non-interference with people’s personal lives is IMHO a good thing. I would argue that, while “no gay marriage” might not interfere with traditional marriage, it does interfere with marriage as a whole, and that outlawing one option in favor of another constitutes the enforcement of traditional values. > [@Debaser](#): > > This thread is turning out to be a great example of the old saying: “Conservatives think Liberals are bad at governing. Liberals think Conservatives are just pure evil.” It’s certainly a detriment to democracy when two sides are unable to rationally discuss the issues. Unfortunately, the scales are evening out, and Conservatives will see Liberals as evil soon enough (most I know already do). > [@Beware of Doug](#): > > Conservatives want the nation to prosper. Liberals want the people to prosper. You are aware of the significant overlap between these two options, yes? It would be very difficult to create a prosperous nation without a prosperous populace. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2004, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-and-traditional-values-a-question-for-the-conservatives/281810/39 "2004-12-29T20:27:48Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Yes, single parent households are much more common with blacks. > It’s because of failed liberal programs like houing projects and welfare that these people have become trapped in a cycle of dependancy and have had the traditional family eroded. As a result of the liberals trying to help them, they are now much worse off. I’d say the compassionate thing to do is to cut these failed programs. Remember: This is not because I’m evil. It’s because I have a different idea about how to solve these problems than you do. > > [I feel like I’m explaining this to a child. I really wish you people would get it. The snide remark aside, you haven’t done much to bolster your claims that single parent African-American households are due to lax morals or “liberal housing projects”. And the claim that “as a result of liberals trying to help them, they are now much worse off”, also needs some factual backup. I understand that it is your opinion. I have not called you evil. Stick to the topic at hand. What traditional values are you espousing? Mom, Dad and 2 kids? Can Mom work outside the home? Can Dad stay at home and Mom bring home the bacon? Who watches Jr while the parents work? How much work is too much? Should Mom only have a PT job–to provide that moral compass for Jr? What about shift work? I assume that traditional values means some type of worship–what kind is best? What kind should get government funding–all or none? What about health insurance? Many jobs don’t provide such a perk–what to do with those unfortunates who have those jobs? Suck it up? What of the jobs that only provide insurance bennys at prohibitive costs? What if these sad sack people have pre-existing conditions that double their premiums or cancel their policies altogether? How, HOW do the conservative cries for “freedom” and “traditional values” manifest themselves in the day to day world? I have yet to get concrete answers from the cons that I know in RL. Maybe you could help. While you may feel you are dealing with children, I feel that I am dealing with someone who is out of touch with reality. BTW: I meant defense when I posted “guns” in my fist post. Sorry for the shorthand. And to the post that stated that cons want to build the nation, the libs want to build the people–what is a nation w/o people? ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2004, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-and-traditional-values-a-question-for-the-conservatives/281810/40 "2004-12-29T21:36:46Z")
> [@Beware of Doug](#): > > Conservatives want the nation to prosper. Liberals want the people to prosper. I’d amend this to: Liberals want the people to prosper. Conservative want the corporations to prosper – and the prosperity of the people is left as a “trickle down” effect. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-and-traditional-values-a-question-for-the-conservatives/281810.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-and-traditional-values-a-question-for-the-conservatives/281810.md?page=3)