# Freedom of Religion - comes from God? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 15, 2006, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-comes-from-god/340048 "2006-01-15T03:55:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2006, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-comes-from-god/340048/21 "2006-01-15T15:27:08Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > As far as God offering evidence. The logic is that of he did, then moving toward him would no longer be an act of faith. If there is this God and he has the endless powers ascribed to him, he _could_ very easily prove his existence and his power, either through the kind of plagues he visited upon Egypt or by turning the Empire State Building upside down and other “impossible” tricks, but that would remove the leap of faith that doctrine says is required. But the idea that God’s existence has to be accepted on faith is exactly what’s so asinine about it. Belief doesn’t count unless it’s arrived at purely by a guess? WTF? How does that make sense? RE: the “Judeo-Christian” thing. I say it’s another word for Christian because there is really no way to distinguish between that which is Judeo-Christian and that which is merely Christian. Everything Christian is Judeo-Christian. It’s the same thing. Any paradigm which includes “Christian” necessarily exludes Judaism. I think some people really mean to say “Jewish AND Christian” when they use the term but the hyphenated phrase cannot be defined any differently than plain old Christianity. ---
**Author:** ![Race\_Bannon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Race\_Bannon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Race_Bannon)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2006, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-comes-from-god/340048/22 "2006-01-15T16:15:59Z")
It was not my desire to debate about free will, but while we’re at it, can someone explain to me the “You shall have no other gods before me” commanment in light of religious freedom? Surely, hearing the rules from god himself that I (or we, as in society) should not pay attention to other gods does not sound like much freedom. If this is truely god’s wish, why not a commandment like “Feel free to worship anything and any way you like - I will not hold it against thee”? ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2006, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-comes-from-god/340048/23 "2006-01-15T16:29:45Z")
> [@Apos](#): > > If God really cared about free will, he would > a) make his existence a non-controvertible reality > b) make plain that there are absolutely no “surprise! now you burn in hell, or rot in your own loneliness or what have you!” consequences for not loving him, ever. It’s all up to your free, un-threatened choice. > c) maybe even hint that there is some mild discomfort for doing his will > d) see what happens. Definite agreement from me. If God wants us to have choices, then \*give us \* choices, not just Worship Me Shiny Happy Option and…the alternative _cue spooky laughter, thunder and lightning_. With regards to the OP, i’ve always had trouble understanding why many Christians say that people will go to heaven no matter what they think they believe in - as long as they are doing God’s work and living by his rules - and yet it’s right there in the 10 commandments. No false gods, no graven images. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2006, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-comes-from-god/340048/24 "2006-01-15T17:09:00Z")
You’re coming at this from the wrong perspective. Start by granting a “for the sake of argument” presumption about religious metaphysics: **If** there is one actual God, and **if** He is the one described in the Bible and the teachings of the Churches for the last 2000 years, give or take, then it’s clear that He values free will, and wants people to **choose** to believe in Him. Granted that it’s a bit of a Hobson’s Choice situation from the evangelical perspective: “Either believe in Me or suffer eternal torment” the choice is still there and available to all. Beyond that, the “natural law” paradigm for the legal philosophy regarding rights presumes that any rights that may be guaranteed exist as “God-given rights” – which means exactly what it says. You have the freedom of speech, the right to free exercise of your religion, the right not to be forced to incriminate yourself, etc., (a) because they’re guaranteed by the Constitution. But the reason that it guarantees them is that (b) they’re pre-existent rights given by God to all human beings, and unjustly abridged by totalitarian regimes. Now, Roy Moore may believe as an individual that everybody ought to be a devout and practicing Southern Baptist. But as a judge, what he believes is that God gave human beings those rights and our legal system protects them, so that people are free to choose whether or not to do the right thing and believe in Him. (We won’t get into his jurisprudence in re the Establishment Clause; I don’t want to be responsible for exploding brains among Dopers. ;)) It makes sense, in a mind-warping sort of way. Suppose a sincere libertarian who is also something of a moralist. He may believe that viewing pornography is a demeaning and destructive pursuit. But he also believes that the government has no right to prohibit it. The parallel is by no means perfect, but the idea that there is a God who gives free will and inherent rights to all humans should make some sort of sense. The rest of the logic then falls into place. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2006, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-comes-from-god/340048/25 "2006-01-15T17:36:01Z")
> [@Apos](#): > > But if the payoffs are as you say, then the only rational explanation for the choices made is that they are made without the necessary information. No one would choose eternal suffering intentionally, no matter what the short-term payoff. Well, they still have to believe that eternal suffering was a reality. > [@Apos](#): > > In Protestant circles perhaps. The Catholic line is that the existence of God is perceptible by reason. The idea that belief in god is pure faith is considered to be something of a theological blunder, in Catholic thinking. What is the Catholic “proof” of God? Doesn’t it require a leap of faith at some point? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2006, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-comes-from-god/340048/26 "2006-01-15T17:39:13Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > Why do you say Catholics or Christians? Catholics or _other_ Christians… Sorry. Was there supposed to be something else at the end of your post. If so, it got screwed up. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2006, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-comes-from-god/340048/27 "2006-01-15T17:41:13Z")
> [@Race Bannon](#): > > Well, from the Virginia (Jefferson’s) statute: “Whereas Almighty God hath created the mind free…”. Does it help to remember that this is the same Jefferson who wrote “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness”? In this sense, God = our creator, and the rights that we have (or should have, if they don’t get taken away from us) by virtue of our existence as human beings can be thought of as having been given to us by God. And among these rights are the liberty to believe, profess, and worship (or not) as we see fit. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2006, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-comes-from-god/340048/28 "2006-01-15T18:02:47Z")
The Declaration of Independence is not a legal document. We get our freedoms from the Constutution, which was written by humans. We are permitted to believe they were given to us by supernatural entities if we so desire but we are not _required_ to do so, and no gods have ever weighed in on the issue. As it stands, the US Constutitution is completely indistinguishible from a document written by humans which can be _changed_ at the whim of humans. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2006, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-comes-from-god/340048/29 "2006-01-15T18:13:51Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > As far as God offering evidence. The logic is that of he did, then moving toward him would no longer be an act of faith. If there is this God and he has the endless powers ascribed to him, he _could_ very easily prove his existence and his power, either through the kind of plagues he visited upon Egypt or by turning the Empire State Building upside down and other “impossible” tricks, but that would remove the leap of faith that doctrine says is required. The reason the doctrine requires faith is because it cannot provide proof. Your only choice is to have faith. No choice at all, really. ---
**Author:** ![spingears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@spingears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spingears)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2006, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-comes-from-god/340048/30 "2006-01-15T20:50:26Z")
> [@Race Bannon](#): > > I have several problems… > First, it simply sounds logically very weak - it sounds like Henry Ford when he says " you can have a car any color, as long as it’s black". It’s like you’re saying that our country recognizes a god who wants freedom of religion, so you’re free to believe in other gods, but, (accroding to Roy) you need to acknowledge the Christian god who lets you belive such nonsense. It sounds crazy. > > Second, where do folks get the idea that the Christian god wants freedom? How about those commandments that say “You shall have no other gods before me” and “no graven images” and such? That doesn’t sound like the Christian god is okay with freedom of religion. If you believe in the God of the Bible then you have free choice to accept or reject God. If you beleive in John Calvin’s doctrine of irresistable grace you will be dragged into heaven, kicking and screaming to no avail. If you believe in anything else you will do what ever you wish, regardless of what the consequences may be. ---
**Author:** ![yBeayf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e274bd/32.png) [@yBeayf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yBeayf)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2006, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-comes-from-god/340048/31 "2006-01-16T02:51:00Z")
> [@](#): > > The problem is, that there are those in American history and law that believe that freedom of religion is something that God himself (that is, the Christian god) wants people to have. Such is not really supportable, either from scripture or from the writings of the Church. > [@](#): > > Second, where do folks get the idea that the Christian god wants freedom? It seems to be a product of fuzzy-headed Enlightenment thinking. > [@](#): > > How about those commandments that say “You shall have no other gods before me” and “no graven images” and such? That doesn’t sound like the Christian god is okay with freedom of religion. You are correct. > [@](#): > > Third, how about the historical problems with all the other countries / kings/ nations that embraced Christianity as a state religion - why didn’t they go for this F.O.R. thing? Because freedom of religion is a matter of political expedience, not a God-given right, and for most of Christianity’s history rulers did not find it expedient to permit FoR. We have free will, which means that we are of course free to believe whatever we want, but there’s no absolute right to freedom of religious practice. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2006, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-comes-from-god/340048/32 "2006-01-16T12:23:47Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] > [@monavis](#): > > Why do you say Catholics or Christians? > > Catholics or _other_ Christians… Sorry. > > Was there supposed to be something else at the end of your post. If so, it got screwed up. I am sorry it was my mistake, I wanted my name after my question but it wouldn’t go through so I put it at the end…forgive my stupidity. Thanks, Monavis ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-comes-from-god/340048/33 "2006-01-17T17:55:19Z")
> [@Thudlow Boink](#): > > Does it help to remember that this is the same Jefferson who wrote “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness”? > > In this sense, God = our creator, and the rights that we have (or should have, if they don’t get taken away from us) by virtue of our existence as human beings can be thought of as having been given to us by God. And among these rights are the liberty to believe, profess, and worship (or not) as we see fit. Not to mention that Jefferson and Madison’s god was a fur piece from Roy Moore’s god. To be fair, the Baptists of the day were in support of the Virginia declaration, being a minority and not likely to be established. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-comes-from-god/340048/34 "2006-01-17T17:57:53Z")
> [@cthiax](#): > > Would you prefer a God who reached into your brain and made you think and feel whatever he wanted you to? I never understand why that option isn’t a brazillion times creepier to some people. False dichotomy. God could let you into heaven if you were good by some measure, even if you didn’t believe in him. Imagine going into a voting booth to vote for a proposition about which you have read 15 mutually contradictory things, and which you are not allowed to read the text of. Do you really have a free choice in voting? That’s the situation with god belief today. It seems the only safe thing to do would be to vote no just in case. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-comes-from-god/340048.md?page=1)